Comeback of Ancient Farming Practice

[Susan BBPM]

You don't hate humanity but call us an "infestation"?
Things don't look good?
Humanity is the richest it's ever been.
Up until 140 years ago we ordinary folk in UK/USA were living on less than $1 a day at today's rates. I absolutely agree with redistribution, but WEF's plan is for the ordinary folk to bear the brunt of redistribution, instead of the nauseatingly rich. As for oil/gas/coal they are precisely what have made us rich:
ENERGY = the ability to do more work & individuals can do what tens of people could do without machinery.
THINK ABOUT THIS:
We are not being herded into 15 minute ghettoes because we've done anything wrong.
Hunter gatherers would strip areas of absolutely everything they could forage with no thought about the environment; they were too poor to have any choice.
We have the right to eat meat, & it's not eating meat that causes cruelty; it's the PROFITEERING from eating meat which is to blame.
YES we could feed the planet on organic practices alone, eventually, but that would involve a lengthy changeover & hugely more labour, reducing profits (which isn't a concern to me).Oth
Humanity is a benefit to the planet & the wealthier we become, the more we can afford to care about the environment.
Make gas & electricity universally cheap, set people free from unrelenting grind; that's how to look after the environment.

We have thousands of years of natural gas reserves including fracking reserves etc.

Yes, you've got it. I don't hate humanity. I neither love or hate any species. All are just a product of natural selection. When one species becomes so dominant that it trheatens other species the correct descriptive word to use is infestation.

I look around me and I dislike most of what humans are doing to their environment. Others are of course entitled to disagree.

What I will say is that I have been luckyi enough to live through a rare 'golden age'. I was born after the war and have always known peace. I grew up and lived my adult life through the 'boom' years where cheap energy (fossil fuel) made massive expansion possible. Until recently it all seemed wonderful - and constant. But it's now very apparent that the bubble is about to burst. As with every empire/society - it's all fun and games during the expansion phase, but when things collapse or retract it's hell on earth. It's easy to keep law and order, kindness, fairness etc when there's abundance. But when there isn't enough to go round people revert to type - survival of the fittest.

Native Americans and Aborigonies had a much more sustainable way of life. They worked with nature and took what they needed and no more. That way of life can last for a long, long time - but of course, a civilization such as ours will always come along and conquer eventually. That's the natural way of things.

I'm an extreme introvert. I couldn't tollerate living in a tribe or close community. I've loved the complete indpendence and free choice that Western society has given me. But it's over. Not from anyone's choice, but from the inescapable fact that a system requiring exponential growith in a finite world will always be short lived.

Time will tell. I'm merely explaining my interest in Ancient Farming Practices (which is what the thread is about). The key thing about Ancient Farming Practicies is they didn't rely on modern technology. They gave the individual complete independence. I think society is on the verge of collapse and my hope is to live out my final years/months enjoying the challenge of learning the old ways of doing things. Learning to live independently of the state.

If my predictdions are wrong I lose nothing. In my opinion Western society is passed it's sell by date. I don't like it any more. So even if the word continues to turn as normal I'll still be happy with my little project.

 

[Susan BBPM]

If you are that smart my dear, maybe you could at least moderate your language a little. It lets you down rather.

I don't think I swore or used any bad language? Unless I've made a typo I used the correct words - words you'll find in any dicitonary - to describe commonly accepted concepts.

I'm having a discussion is all. I don't like getting into adhominem attacks. It's not my style. I prefer to stick to concepts and ideas.

I take it I've now been labelled as 'the wrong type of conspiracy theorist'? LOL I'm now in the enemy camp?

 

[headfullofbees]

No - I think deeply about things. I dont need to rethink.

I too have family members with genetic abnormalities. Of course everyone wants the lives of their loved ones to be made better.

But the FACT is that meddling with natural selection is dangerous for the long term health of the species. There have been plenty of people that have written about the ethics surrounding this. I'm not saying anything contraversial here.

I make no comment on what SHOULD happen. Only on the consequences of our actions.

Do you not think that we should try to preserve endangered species?
Only that is directly meddling with natural selection as over 99% of all the species who have ever lived are now extinct.
Whether those who have written on ethics are, or are not, controversial is very much dependant upon what they write.
Anyone would condemn, at least in part, the views of most schools of ethics.

 

[headfullofbees]

"Yes, you've got it. I don't hate humanity. I neither love or hate any species. All are just a product of natural selection. When one species becomes so dominant that it trheatens other species the correct descriptive word to use is infestation."

Yet we preserve species which are endangered, & not necessarily by us, look at the Giant Panda (poster animal of the WWF).
I first became aware of human efforts to save that species as a schoolboy in the 1960s.
Whales benefitted from worldwide freedom from hunting when it was realised how badly their numbers were dwindling.
Fishing quotas have been in place for decades to maintain health
We modify our behaviour for the benefit of other species, so yes, we are successful that's no infestation.
We are heavily involved in ecologically positive activity & sentiment.
Infestation is an insult to humanity.

 

[headfullofbees]

"But it's over. Not from anyone's choice, but from the inescapable fact that a system requiring exponential growith in a finite world will always be short lived."

Misanthropes have been saying that for centuries.
That's precisely what I meant about disregarding human ingenuity.
There will be infinite growth; there has always been infinite growth, because human ingenuity finds new TYPES of growth.
Hunter-gatherer to farmer to trader to industrial revolution to space age to information revolution.
Since the dawn of humanity, 2 million or more years ago, there has ALWAYS been infinite growth; just because we don't know what form the next layer of growth will assume. it doesn't mean there won't be one.
History says different.

 

[Susan BBPM]

Do you not think that we should try to preserve endangered species?
Only that is directly meddling with natural selection as over 99% of all the species who have ever lived are now extinct.
Whether those who have written on ethics are, or are not, controversial is very much dependant upon what they write.
Anyone would condemn, at least in part, the views of most schools of ethics.

As I say, I'm not expressing an opinion on what we SHOULD do. Merely pointing out the consequences of meddling with the natural order of things.

Take for example the big panic caused by the collapse of bee hives in the US. That represented a huge threat as without polinators crops would fail. People started preserving bees by creating bee hives. However, scientists are now saying that too many people are keeping bees and they are eating all the food (nectar) causing 'wild' bees and other polinators to die off.

There are always unforseen consequences when humans meddle with systems that have taken millions of years to evolve and reach equilibrium.

The reality is, humans have reached a level where they (if they were any other species) would be called an infestation. A threat to the natural balance of the environment. You could argue that we should mitigate for the damage we cause by taking corrective action - but we don't understand things well enough to know whether our actions are helping or hindering.

And that's essentially where we are. Smart enough to blow the planet to smitherines but not smart enough to work out the long term implications of all the steps we take to 'make things better'. Too much power and way too little understanding of the world around us.

 

[Susan BBPM]

"But it's over. Not from anyone's choice, but from the inescapable fact that a system requiring exponential growith in a finite world will always be short lived."

Misanthropes have been saying that for centuries.
That's precisely what I meant about disregarding human ingenuity.
There will be infinite growth; there has always been infinite growth, because human ingenuity finds new TYPES of growth.
Hunter-gatherer to farmer to trader to industrial revolution to space age to information revolution.
Since the dawn of humanity, 2 million or more years ago, there has ALWAYS been infinite growth; just because we don't know what form the next layer of growth will assume. it doesn't mean there won't be one.
History says different.

I hope you're right. But I'm pretty certain your wrong.

History has shown time and time again how civilizations rise and fall.

Civilzations have been falling for centuries. Each time, I don't doubt that the citizens of those civilizations thought that their society was so strong and stable that it could never fall. But each and every one does.

The thing that's different this time is that a) it's a global civilzation - meaning the whole thing crashes down. Not just one small part of the world. b) we have the might to destroy the plannet killing off every form of life as we enter the desparate death throws.

Sorry, but history proves my point.

 

[Susan BBPM]

"Yes, you've got it. I don't hate humanity. I neither love or hate any species. All are just a product of natural selection. When one species becomes so dominant that it trheatens other species the correct descriptive word to use is infestation."

Yet we preserve species which are endangered, & not necessarily by us, look at the Giant Panda (poster animal of the WWF).
I first became aware of human efforts to save that species as a schoolboy in the 1960s.
Whales benefitted from worldwide freedom from hunting when it was realised how badly their numbers were dwindling.
Fishing quotas have been in place for decades to maintain health
We modify our behaviour for the benefit of other species, so yes, we are successful that's no infestation.
We are heavily involved in ecologically positive activity & sentiment.
Infestation is an insult to humanity.

We're meddling with things we don't understand.

Infestation is a descriptive word which I have used in the correct context. No species is inherently bad, but in huge numbers any speicies becomes a damaging infestation which throws the delicate balance of nature out of whack. Nature always has a way of re-balancing things - eventually another organism or species capitalizes off of the success of that infestation and wipes it out!

So something as simple as a virus finding a ready supply of hosts, or a predetor gourging on an abundant food supply. Or sometimes the species is a victim of it's own success - it essentially consumes all the available resources then slowly (or rapidly) starves to death.

 

[Susan BBPM]

Think of it in terms of permaculture principles. You don't want to wipe out all the slugs, greenfly and cabbage whites as doing that will mean the predators that feed on them won't come to your garden. That creates a situation where an infestation of 'bad bugs' can take hold quickly.

In your garden, when you're working with nature, you want balance. Equilibrium. Imagine the headaches you'd have trying to prevent infestation and desease from destroying your garden if you had species in your garden with the 'ingenuity of man' that you so admire.

We think we have the power to control nature. Nature will prove us wrong. Nature has been practicing for billions of years. We're new kids on the block. About as significant as ants in the big scheme of things.

 

[Tetters]

 

[Susan BBPM]

I'm familiar with Neil Oliver and his thinking is very similar to mine. So if you think he disagrees with some of my points you'll need to spell it out. I don't know what point you're trying to make.

Governments do not have our best interests at heart. They are lying to us. This is beyond question in my mind.

However, they are not doing it for giggles. They're in a blind panic because Western civilization has come up accross a series of problems that can't be resolved.

Energy hasn't run out yet. We could keep ourselves warm and comfortable for decades to come. But there isn't enough cheap energy to grow Western economies. When the economy stops growing governments can't afford to pay their debts. They default. Banks collapse. Businesses go bust. There is no money to pay public workers - no schools, hospitals, police. No money to pay pensions. And your savings - you can whistle for it. The money isn't there.

That's the real crisis - and it can't be avoided.

The powers that be are trying to carve themselves a little niche that preserves their wealth and power and they're kicking the masses off the ladder. Pandemic, war, climate change - all ways to frighten the population into compliance.

We are trashing the planet. We are over populated - to the point where we can't feed everyone when society collapses. But the crsis is the imminent collapse of the global economy. All the mechanisms that underpin society will dissapear overnight. Then what? There will be no warning. You'll go to bed one night with everything normal and you wake up to find it's all gone tits up.

Unless of couse someone comes up with a plan to deal with the real problem. But people tend to fall into two camps - either they're behind the 'great reset' or they are in denial - busy spouting all the latest 'conspiracy theories' but not coming up with solutions. People rising up and saying 'no' will be as effective as King Canute trying to hold back the tide. Global econommies are on the verge of collapse. The Great Reset is the only solution on the table. It's that or utter carnage. Unless someone comes up with another plan.

 

[Ruderunner]

Oh my. You retired folks have way too much time on your hands.

Susan, let me allay your fears. Barring nuclear Armageddon, you and many generations after will have ceased to exist long before the planet becomes uninhabitable.

That's nature. Everything dies eventually and gets replaced by something else. Eventually the giant nuclear reactor in the sky will go supernova then collapse into a black hole. That will be the end of this rock flying through space.

What will replace it? Who knows for sure. But, I bet eventually enough of the universe gets swallowed into a black hole that there will be another big bang and the process repeats.

 

[Susan BBPM]

Oh my. You retired folks have way too much time on your hands.

Susan, let me allay your fears. Barring nuclear Armageddon, you and many generations after will have ceased to exist long before the planet becomes uninhabitable.

That's nature. Everything dies eventually and gets replaced by something else. Eventually the giant nuclear reactor in the sky will go supernova then collapse into a black hole. That will be the end of this rock flying through space.

What will replace it? Who knows for sure. But, I bet eventually enough of the universe gets swallowed into a black hole that there will be another big bang and the process repeats.

So basically, listen to 'bloke on internet' because he knows it all (despite being too busy to actually spend time looking into the facts)? LOL

Nuclear armageddon is a real possiblity, but I'm not talking about the planet ceasing to support life. I'm talking about to an end to the way of life that we've become totally reliant upon.

The economic system that Western society is built upon (so the infrastructure that you rely on to stay alive) is on the verge of collapse. It's real, it's happening.

THAT is the crisis that every country in the world is responding to. They say it's a climate emergency - well yes, climate is changing. They say it's about war - yes, there is war....but why? What are they really fighting over? They fake pandemics (or over-egg them) - why? To what end?

When ordinary people find out that the ecconomic system is collapsing they too will behave in the way that leaders of the world's countries are doing. They'll start fighting for resources and power as new societies and infrastructures are formed. But while that all takes place there will be utter carnage.

Life as we've known it is over.

And yes - that's nature. It's the way it's been throughout history - although this time is different in that the entire world is impacted at once.

As I say, I'm OK about it. My life until now has been good and it will continue to be good because I've already disengaged from society and started to live relatively off-grid. I don't have kids to worry about. I'm going back to living in the way our ancestors did - before we had all the things that we're about to lose. And I'm enjoying it. But I'm well aware that if things get really bad I have no way of defending my little piece of paradise. But my approach ensures that I can ride out a lot of bad stuff in complete bliss, and survive some bad times.

I'm explaining why *I* have chosen to look at ancient farming practices.

Others that think everything is hunky dory and there are no changes ahead will no doubt adopt all that's being offered by governments with open hands. All power to them!

 

[Ruderunner]

Oh come now, I'm aware of what both sides are saying. I also realize that the truth is in the middle.

Civilization survived for a long time without anything resembling the modern economy. The barter system has always been there. This country has already suffered an economic collapse (great depression) and survived it.

I'm in a pretty rural area, infrastructure is minimal. And if the electric goes away, I have the ability to make my own. I have well water, I have septic. I have skills that can be traded for things I don't have. Life for me won't change too much, sure there's downsides but there's upsides too. Like not having to go to work!

Folks in dense urban areas are up the creek without a paddle, or a canoe. But, they're not my concern. Indeed, many of that group are causing the current situation, management and finance types. If they suffer for their poor choices, that's a net benefit.

Years ago I had a book titled TEOTWAWKI, alas lost during a move. It was rather prescient and chock full of useful information.

I'd add, knowledge is cumulative. If things go sideways, we don't start from scratch living in caves and wondering what berries would kill us. No, picking up about where we left off is likely. Sure there's going to be a few rough years until people get their heads about them.

 

[Susan BBPM]

You are missing my point completely.

The vast majority of the people living in the West are incapable of surviving without 'society' and the structures in place - both locally, nationally and internationally.

Things have progressed rapidly in the West since the Industrial Revolution. People used to live largely independently of the state - their only contact with the state was to pay taxes and fight their wars. At ever increasing velocity our independence has been eroded - everything we consume and rely on to stay alive is provided either by 'mother state' or a handful of large corporations.

Western governmentts are in massive debt. How do they pay the interest on those loans - how do they pay down the amount owed? How do they pay for public services, healthcare, police etc? The answer is by growing the economy. If the economy stands still or shrinks the only way to pay off interest payments, wages for public servents, defence budgets, education budgets etc is to borrow more. I believe the US are talking about raising the debt ceiling - they've already reached the maximum amount they can borrow and it's still not enough. The more they borrow, the more wars they engage in and the more ambitious infrastrucure plans they embark on the bigger the amount of money they need just to pay interest on the debt. The ONLY way to pay off that debt is either austerity or ecconomic growth. People are already strapped for cash - cutting back more won't be enough. So they NEED to grow that economy. And as you can see - they can't.

Historical records show a diirect correlation between availability of cheap energy sources and economic growth. You cannot grow the economy without an equivelent growth in availability of CHEAP energy.

Yes, their are enough resources on the planet to support life - even comfortable life - for decades to come. But there isn't enough cheap to obtain energy available to allow the economy to keep growing. We've slammed up a brick wall.

So how do you change the entire Western world - in fact, the entire world - from an economic system that everyone underrstands to something completely new an different? And what will that new system look like? Who will be the winners? Who will be the loosers? If most people feel they've lost uprising and utter carnage is likely.

The ONLY plan on the table is 'the Great Reset'. A switch to living in smart cities, eating bugs and earning our right to little pleasures in life via a social credit system. Digital currency would enable globaly centralized government to say what we can buy and when. We will own nothing - and they insist that we will be happy (whether we like it or not).

Instead of coming up with a better alternative to the current system they've managed to get everyone arguing over 'conspiracy theories', whether a woman has a penis and who's 'woke' and 'who's got their head in the sand'. All the while, the powers that be slowly but surely shift us to their new system - where they own everything and we have nothing. We are essentially factory farmed - perhaps until they come up with a 'final solution' for us.

Those moaning about corrupt governments etc - time for them to get THEIR heads out of the sand and start thinking about what solution they have for the very real problem that's looming. Because we're about to go over the cliff edge.