Comeback of Ancient Farming Practice

[headfullofbees]

I hope you're right. But I'm pretty certain your wrong.

History has shown time and time again how civilizations rise and fall.

Civilzations have been falling for centuries. Each time, I don't doubt that the citizens of those civilizations thought that their society was so strong and stable that it could never fall. But each and every one does.

The thing that's different this time is that a) it's a global civilzation - meaning the whole thing crashes down. Not just one small part of the world. b) we have the might to destroy the plannet killing off every form of life as we enter the desparate death throws.

Sorry, but history proves my point.

Civilizations rise & fall; the species marches on.

 

[Ruderunner]

You are missing my point completely.

The vast majority of the people living in the West are incapable of surviving without 'society' and the structures in place - both locally, nationally and internationally.

I don't disagree with that. But I believe you're overstating the problem. There's many who are dependent on handouts, whether from government or?

Things have progressed rapidly in the West since the Industrial Revolution. People used to live largely independently of the state - their only contact with the state was to pay taxes and fight their wars. At ever increasing velocity our independence has been eroded - everything we consume and rely on to stay alive is provided either by 'mother state' or a handful of large corporations.

Again, overstating the problem.

Western governmentts are in massive debt. How do they pay the interest on those loans - how do they pay down the amount owed? How do they pay for public services, healthcare, police etc? The answer is by growing the economy. If the economy stands still or shrinks the only way to pay off interest payments, wages for public servents, defence budgets, education budgets etc is to borrow more.

or cutting spending. There's lots of government services and employees who are not needed.

I believe the US are talking about raising the debt ceiling - they've already reached the maximum amount they can borrow and it's still not enough. The more they borrow, the more wars they engage

war is a constant, only the names change.

in and the more ambitious infrastrucure plans they embark on the bigger the amount of money they need just to pay interest on the debt. The ONLY way to pay off that debt is either austerity or ecconomic growth.

this last bit isn't mutually exclusive.

People are already strapped for cash - cutting back more won't be enough. So they NEED to grow that economy. And as you can see - they can't.

Can't or won't? There's plenty that can be done but isn't. Plenty of things that need to stop as well.

Historical records show a diirect correlation between availability of cheap energy sources and economic growth. You cannot grow the economy without an equivelent growth in availability of CHEAP energy.

No kidding? Cheap and abundant energy has brought most of the world out of caves and animal skins.

Yes, their are enough resources on the planet to support life - even comfortable life - for decades to come. But there isn't enough cheap to obtain energy available to allow the economy to keep growing. We've slammed up a brick wall.

As if nothing will ever be invented to find and provide energy?

So how do you change the entire Western world - in fact, the entire world - from an economic system that everyone underrstands to something completely new an different? And what will that new system look like? Who will be the winners? Who will be the loosers? If most people feel they've lost uprising and utter carnage is likely.

The smart ones are prepared already. They know how to barter and what they have to barter with. Our current use of money is simply a way to allow folks to do business in the event they don't have anything to barter.

The ONLY plan on the table is 'the Great Reset'. A switch to living in smart cities, eating bugs and earning our right to little pleasures in life via a social credit system. Digital currency would enable globaly centralized government to say what we can buy and when. We will own nothing - and they insist that we will be happy (whether we like it or not).

Is this run by SPECTRE?

And I'm aware of the Davos crowd. Don't put much stock in it.

Instead of coming up with a better alternative to the current system they've managed to get everyone arguing over 'conspiracy theories', whether a woman has a penis and who's 'woke' and 'who's got their head in the sand'. All the while, the powers that be slowly but surely shift us to their new system - where they own everything and we have nothing. We are essentially factory farmed - perhaps until they come up with a 'final solution' for us.

Might be location based. I understand that Ireland has come up with some rather sad laws about speech.

Those moaning about corrupt governments etc - time for them to get THEIR heads out of the sand and start thinking about what solution they have for the very real problem that's looming. Because we're about to go over the cliff edge.

I have quite a bit of precious metal in my possession, some silver, some gold and a fair bit of lead.

 

[Susan BBPM]

I don't disagree with that. But I believe you're overstating the problem. There's many who are dependent on handouts, whether from government or?


Again, overstating the problem.


or cutting spending. There's lots of government services and employees who are not needed.


war is a constant, only the names change.


this last bit isn't mutually exclusive.


Can't or won't? There's plenty that can be done but isn't. Plenty of things that need to stop as well.


No kidding? Cheap and abundant energy has brought most of the world out of caves and animal skins.


As if nothing will ever be invented to find and provide energy?


The smart ones are prepared already. They know how to barter and what they have to barter with. Our current use of money is simply a way to allow folks to do business in the event they don't have anything to barter.


Is this run by SPECTRE?

And I'm aware of the Davos crowd. Don't put much stock in it.


Might be location based. I understand that Ireland has come up with some rather sad laws about speech.


I have quite a bit of precious metal in my possession, some silver, some gold and a fair bit of lead.

You're still completely missing the point.

The system that the West (and more recently under globalist control - the entire world) has been built upon is deeply flawed. It relies upon exponential growth of the economy. Which in turn relies upon exponentially increasing consumption of raw resources. In a finite world this system is time limited - it is not sustainable.

When it fails it is catastrophic and sudden.

Of course - the real 'stuff' is still there. In theory life could continue as normal. Food can be produed, energy provided to fuel industry and heat our homes. The economy is an on-paper exercise.

But it's the rule set upon which everything is agreed.

What happens when the bank says - "sorry folks ... all that money you had saved with us is now worthless'. What happens when the supermarkets don't have money to pay their suppliers. Will the suppliers just hand the produce over without paymennt? Will doctors, police, bin men etc go to work if there are no wages?

Without an agreed ruleset everything will grind to a halt. You might think 'I'm all right jack' because you can grow your own food. But surely you realize that without police and an agreed set of rules angry mobs will simply take what others have. There will be no rules and no police force to protect your possesions.

The carnage will be caused by complete failure of the system.

Unless of course a new system is put in place urgently. You say you don't put too much stock in the 'Davos Crowd'. What do you put stock in - sitting on your backside doing nothing and waiting for the house of cards to come crashing down?

The 'Davos Crowd' are all the richest and most influential people in the world. Politicians, business leaders etc. Like it or not, they ARE running the world. The plan that they have come up with is called 'The Great Reset'.

Currently, the choices on the table are - do nothing and be plunged into utter carnage or this Great Reset that they're all clearly working towards.

There is no political group or activist suggesting any alternative.

I think the only uncertainty is down to whether they get this 'great reset' implemented before the current system crashes. If they don't it's a free for all.

 

[Susan BBPM]

Civilizations rise & fall; the species marches on.

Possibly. Possibly not. It depends upon how it falls. For example, a meteor hitting the plannet would wipe out almost all species (we know this because it's happened before).

But most people don't care about the species. They care about themselves and their friends and families. For example, most people don't care that people in foreign lands are having their country torn apart by war. Most don't care that millions starve in third world countries. They care about their own country - and more specifically their own area, friends, family.

For the first time in living memory hell on earth is heading for western civilization. We've had stability for so long that we've come to think it doesn't happen to us. I think we're about to get a reality check.

 

[headfullofbees]

" For example, a meteor hitting the plannet would wipe out almost all species (we know this because it's happened before)."

Well, yes, but that's not exactly down to ill-considered actions by mankind, which is what we were talking about.

 

[Meadowlark]

How about a little dose of ancient farming practices applied in the current, real World.

The plot below (approximately 1000 sq. ft.) produced over 400 pounds of potatoes, 200 pounds of onions, 700 carrots, 20 gallons of beans, 25 pounds of garlic, untold numbers of squash fruits and several miscellaneous other produce this spring alone. All this without the use of synthetic fertilizers or other chemicals. Now, many of the nutrients used in that production are either gone or are very low in volume. The soil cries out for replenishment.

Here is where I heavily rely on ancient techniques of adding composted manure and planting cover crops to regenerate that soil. No synthetic fertilize. Everything completely sustainable.

The first step is to cover that depleted plot in several inches of well composted cow manure which I prepare on my ranch. See attached photo. It isn't required to till that compost into the tired soil as it is ready now for the next step which is seeding the cover crop.

I use Sunn Hemp as a summer cover crop. It is an incredible additive to any soil, especially those depleted in Nitrogen (N) and Nitrates (NO3-N). This plant probably was not available to most of the ancient farmers who relied on lesser but still effective other plants such as alfalfa, various peas, and beans. The Sunn Hemp will be planted today...just broadcast spreading it over the compost.

By Aug. 15 of this summer, the cover will be over 10 ft. high and so thick with foliage that there will be no visible weeds in the entire plot. By Sept. 1, all of that vegetation will be incorporated into the soil first by shredding/chopping and then by discing. This is where IMO the no dig advocates fall woefully short in their approach. There is something absolutely magic about incorporating green manure into soils. The ancients knew it and used it extensively. Science has shown that this kind of crop rotation yields up to 58% more than the no-till approach...see University of Washington study on same.

Shortly after Sept. 1, that plot will be ready to grow whatever and will do so with a soil that is "NO N, P, K required". The process will result in adding a minimum of 30 ppm N, 20 ppm P, 80 ppm K, 25 ppm Mg, 10 ppm Fe, 8 ppm Mn, and others without altering the soil ph. How do I know this...because I have done it several times now supported by soil tests.

The standard rebuttal on this forum goes as "but you can't scale this approach down to small plots". Utterly false.

Just for fun, selected HK tubs you see in the left of the below photo will be treated in exactly the same identical manner to demonstrate that the techniques can be applied successfully at the container level, which is the smallest size I know of in gardening. With HK containers, one can either replace the topsoil after it is depleted with replenished garden soil or alternatively replenish the HK container topsoil in sutu by following these exact steps. By Sept. this will be demonstrated.

As one person, I can't change a lot of what is complained about in this thread. But on my level, I absolutely can build soil through ancient farming techniques that going forward benefits those in the present and in the future uses of this ground.

 

[Tetters]

But most people don't care about the species. They care about themselves and their friends and families.

I'm old. I don't care so much about myself. I care more about young people like you, as well as my kids and grandkids. I care about how small children are having their innocence ruined, and I care that humankind generally is being lied to by a FEW who think they are important, and that the rest of us don't matter.
@Meadowlark, your methods of gardening, and continued reporting are like a breath of fresh air. Your neighbours must appreciate you and your efforts and generosity so much.

 

[Susan BBPM]

I'm old. I don't care so much about myself. I care more about young people like you, as well as my kids and grandkids. I care about how small children are having their innocence ruined, and I care that humankind generally is being lied to by a FEW who think they are important, and that the rest of us don't matter.
@Meadowlark, your methods of gardening, and continued reporting are like a breath of fresh air. Your neighbours must appreciate you and your efforts and generosity so much.

I agree.

That's the problem that I have. The powers that be (the elites - for want of a better name) are dealing with the problem by looking after themselves and (it seems) herding us all into smart cities where they can factory farm us.

I'll die before I allow that to happen to me. I am content to live out my life in my own little plot of land where I am Queen Bee!!! I can happily spend the rest of my days making a little haven for my husband, myself, my dogs and all the wildlife. We are extreme introverts - we don't crave company. The odd chat with the neighbours is all we need (and our neighbours are all lovely). I'll be in my element trying to make my oasis as self-sufficient and sustainable as possible. I'm very happy to use technology - provided it's controlled by me and not someone else!

I'm very glad that I don't have kids/grandkids. That makes things more difficult as you have to worry about how they will fit into this new world - whatever form it might take.

I'm prepared to believe that for the young the new world could be better than the old one. But of anyone over about 40 it's going to be too much of a paradigm shift. I NEED privacy and freedom. The two things that they're hell bent on taking away from us.

 

[Meadowlark]

Well, so much for trying to get the focus back on ancient farming practices...

 

[Ruderunner]

Hee hee. But, that's why I joined this forum. I would like to be able to at least supplement our food supply. No, I'm not as advanced as you, but, I think I do ok for 2 16x24 plots.

Speaking of, my expansion in the lower plot has some challenges with shade. Or opportunities to plant things that appreciate shade at different times. Hopefully providing a somewhat constant supply through the growing season. For example, lettuce might be planted 3 times in 3 different sections.

 

[Ruderunner]

You're still completely missing the point.

No ma'am I'm not.

The system that the West (and more recently under globalist control - the entire world) has been built upon is deeply flawed. It relies upon exponential growth of the economy. Which in turn relies upon exponentially increasing consumption of raw resources. In a finite world this system is time limited - it is not sustainable.

When it fails it is catastrophic and sudden.

Again, overstating the problem. Assuming everyone is dependent on government or the elites is a sad mistake. Sure, some are dependent, many are not.

Of course - the real 'stuff' is still there. In theory life could continue as normal. Food can be produed, energy provided to fuel industry and heat our homes. The economy is an on-paper exercise.

But it's the rule set upon which everything is agreed.

And if the rules change, one must adapt. Many will as it's in our nature to do so. Look at the world, some live in fridge places, some live in hot places, some wet some dry etc etc. There's no one place where everyone lives.

What happens when the bank says - "sorry folks ... all that money you had saved with us is now worthless'. What happens when the supermarkets don't have money to pay their suppliers. Will the suppliers just hand the produce over without paymennt? Will doctors, police, bin men etc go to work if there are no wages?

See the great depression or the Weimar Republic. People adapt. People barter.

Without an agreed ruleset everything will grind to a halt. You might think 'I'm all right jack' because you can grow your own food. But surely you realize that without police and an agreed set of rules angry mobs will simply take what others have. There will be no rules and no police force to protect your possesions.

In my area we literally have only 25 officers to cover 36 square miles 24/7. We don't need police. Any angry mob will be met by angry homeowners.

The carnage will be caused by complete failure of the system.

That assumes everyone goes completely wild. Possible but highly unlikely. There's always someone with situational awareness that can prevent prolonged craziness. Sometimes that takes force, so be it.

Unless of course a new system is put in place urgently. You say you don't put too much stock in the 'Davos Crowd'. What do you put stock in - sitting on your backside doing nothing and waiting for the house of cards to come crashing down?

I take stock in being prepared for contingencies and being flexible about how to react. I'm not worried about the cards falling, I have options besides curling into a ball and crying. Apparently you feel you don't have that choice, pity. But you can change that, think about what might go wrong, what the odds are and plan accordingly.

The 'Davos Crowd' are all the richest and most influential people in the world. Politicians, business leaders etc. Like it or not, they ARE running the world. The plan that they have come up with is called 'The Great Reset'.

Gee, never heard of that. (Eyeroll)

I don't think that's all that likely.

Currently, the choices on the table are - do nothing and be plunged into utter carnage or this Great Reset that they're all clearly working towards.

Sad you feel so trapped.

There is no political group or activist suggesting any alternative.

I think the only uncertainty is down to whether they get this 'great reset' implemented before the current system crashes. If they don't it's a free for all.

 

[Meadowlark]

... Hopefully providing a somewhat constant supply through the growing season.

Yes, I call that stagger planting and I do that on corn. beans, carrots, and several other veggies to ensure a continuous supply of fresh food and avoid huge surpluses.

Tomatoes are one plant I like to locate a few of in areas that get afternoon shade. Texas heat is devastating, and some afternoon shade can be the difference maker in prolonging the tomato harvest here.

 

[Susan BBPM]

No ma'am I'm not.


Again, overstating the problem. Assuming everyone is dependent on government or the elites is a sad mistake. Sure, some are dependent, many are not.


And if the rules change, one must adapt. Many will as it's in our nature to do so. Look at the world, some live in fridge places, some live in hot places, some wet some dry etc etc. There's no one place where everyone lives.


See the great depression or the Weimar Republic. People adapt. People barter.


In my area we literally have only 25 officers to cover 36 square miles 24/7. We don't need police. Any angry mob will be met by angry homeowners.


That assumes everyone goes completely wild. Possible but highly unlikely. There's always someone with situational awareness that can prevent prolonged craziness. Sometimes that takes force, so be it.


I take stock in being prepared for contingencies and being flexible about how to react. I'm not worried about the cards falling, I have options besides curling into a ball and crying. Apparently you feel you don't have that choice, pity. But you can change that, think about what might go wrong, what the odds are and plan accordingly.


Gee, never heard of that. (Eyeroll)

I don't think that's all that likely.


Sad you feel so trapped.

You are arguing with my explanation as to WHY I'm interested in 'Ancient Farming Methods' -( because in current times you can't rely on crumbling institutions) by saying not everyone is reliant on said institutions!! LOL

Few people can be completely independent - most are crammed into cities like sardines. If things get really bad they will travel out to the countryside to steal what they need from those of us that are prepared. I'm not naive - I realize this. However, we don't know how bad things will get and anything you can do to live independently and comfortably will increase your chances of riding out the storm.

Mostly though I just hate what society has become. I want to stick my head in the sand and live out my days in a little oasis.

So....

I have about 1/4 acre in total (that includes the house I think).

I'm following permaculture principles for design. As well as producing food this is my world - I have beautiful places to sit all over the garden each with different aspects. Veg and fruit are hidden among decorative flowers everywhere. We have indoor and out door gym, cinema etc.

There is a fenced vegetable garden where I grow my winter vegetables. So all the long term stuff. I have a kind of 'inner court yard' at the front that is a real sun trap and I have all my beans, summer squash etc there. That's the food I harvest daily - handy just outside the front door.

There is food (potatoes, leeks, onions etc) tucked away amongst flowers all over the garden. We have about 250 bean plants for dried beans for winter. Czar runner beans, greek gigantis, trail of tears, jacobs cattle beans. These are all highly decorative and help create dividing 'walls' between different parts of the garden.

We have a food forrest with seveeral apple trees, pears, cherries, plums. Huge raspberry, blackberry, tayberry, blueberry patches.
Down the side of the house we have a utility area with a big brassica cage and our polytunnel which in summer is full of tomatoes, peppers, melons, cucumbers.

At some point (we've got 4 dogs right now so it's tricky, but too are very old) we plan to get ducks for eggs. I'd struggle to kill animals to eat, but I guess if you were hungry enoughy you'd manage it. In which case I think it might be rabbits.

We compost everything, have a big worm farm and we make our own fertilizers (comfry and a sepearate general weed)
We have woodburners and a huge supply (years worth) of free wood that doubles up as a huge windbreak. Our cut and ready for use wood is in big woodstores with solar panels on the roof. Our house is powered by solar generators in spring, summer and autumn, but we need the mains in winter.

We have water butts everywhere so collect most of the water we need.

Our plot isn't completely sustainable - currently we compost our neighbour's garden waste as well as our own, and the farmer next door gives us as much cow and horse manure as we need.

We still buy a bit of food - meat, flour, eggs, milk, butter etc. But we COULD I guess get a a goat?

 

[Susan BBPM]

Another thing I do is try to reduce reliance on things that might not be available in the future. I'm not a purist - if something is useful I'll use it. But I always ask myself - what if I can't get this in future?

So....
1. Mechanical tools. For example, in the garden we have a push along lawn mower and scyth. We still have (and use) power tools but we have easily maintainable backups. And in actual fact the backups are much nicer to use and do a better job!

2. Books, DVD's and CD's. Most things can be streamed online. As a consequence you can pick up books and DVD's for pennies. We have bought and downloaded a massive entertainment and knowledge base that can't be 'censored' or switched off.

3. We save our own seeds as much as possible. That gets tricky with some things - for example, Parsnips which needs fresh seeds (they won't keep more than a year). Yet it takes two years to get seeds ready for harvest. We use heirloom varieties of everything.

We've pretty much avoided inflation - our expenditure has gone down faster than prices have gone up. It doesn't feel like scrimping - most of the time we find we're replacing something substandard with high quality.

 

[headfullofbees]