They’re back

[Mrsclem]

Several red food colors were removed from food products years ago because they were found to be harmful. These colorants are still used in non-food applications.

 

[marlingardener]

From Audubon, explaining how to make nectar: Note: There's no need for red dye here. Red coloring is not necessary and the chemicals could prove to be harmful to the birds.
And from All About Birds: https://www.allaboutbirds.org/should-i-use-red-food-coloring-in-hummingbird-food/
This was a bit long to post, but take a look at what both a rehab expert and an author of a book about hummingbirds have to say.
These folks are not exactly Luddites.

 

[treeguy]

They are indeed Luddites. They hang their hats on problems solved 50 years ago. Just because the food is attractive doesn't mean the birds will suddenly be overcome by ignorance and too stupid to find their own way in the wilds. They like a varied diet and do not just live five feet from the feeder, -they come and go at will. And, birders are the quintessential Greenies who are progenitors of politically correct environmentalism and thence to speech and ultimately 1984 thought control. Your complaints about red colorants are absolutely unfounded and are merely tools of control of people who are well-intentioned but don't have enough scientific understanding to decide for themselves.

 

[DirtMechanic]

They are indeed Luddites. They hang their hats on problems solved 50 years ago. Just because the food is attractive doesn't mean the birds will suddenly be overcome by ignorance and too stupid to find their own way in the wilds. They like a varied diet and do not just live five feet from the feeder, -they come and go at will. And, birders are the quintessential Greenies who are progenitors of politically correct environmentalism and thence to speech and ultimately 1984 thought control. Your complaints about red colorants are absolutely unfounded and are merely tools of control of people who are well-intentioned but don't have enough scientific understanding to decide for themselves.

I would very much like you to meet my wife. She will incise your arguement, however bent by your preceived facts. But she has your ability to run over the vocalizations of others. I once saw her take out an entire greyhound busload of italian teenagers partying in our Parisian hotel hallway after my simpering and nice guy methods failed. On that day, I was able to not look behind myself so much. Women can be assholes in ways men cannot, and are better imo in so many details.

 

[alp]

Thank you, @Mrsclem ! Worth having a bit of fun. Always remember son having a good time feeding parakeets in zoos years back.

 

[Silentrunning]

I am going to try the sugar and water mixture for my feeders. I’m not worried about the red coloring, it’s just that I found out what my wife was paying for the premixed stuff.

 

[Tetters]

The Cornell Lab of Ornithology strongly recommends against using red dye in feeders: "There is no research that proves red dye is safe for hummingbirds, and very compelling anecdotal information from experienced, licensed rehabbers that hummers who have been fed dyed food have higher mortality and suffer tumors of the bill and liver."
Extremely High Dose
The concern about red dye comes not only from possible dangers of the chemical itself, but also from how the birds consume it. The amount of dye is not regulated, and the birds are so small that ounce for ounce they are exposed to levels that far exceed amounts known to be harmful. The Accepted Daily Intake (ADI) for Red #40 approved for human consumption by the World Health Organization is a maximum of 7 mg per kg (0.007 mg/g) of body weight (equivalent to 0.007 mg per g body weight).
Hummingbirds consume 10g of nectar solution per day. This means they ingest 17 times more red dye than the maximum daily limit recommended for humans.

@treeguy .... Is there really any need to be so rude and bolshy ?

 

[treeguy]

Show me your math.

 

[Tetters]

Show us some manners.

 

[Silentrunning]

Guys, I put the picture on here to try to bring some enjoyment to our members, not start rude arguments. This thread has gotten to the point of being absurd.

 

[Becky]

@treeguy you're being very rude here. You're entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to have you opinion accepted. A strong argument does not need to rely on name-calling to be convincing.

 

[treeguy]

OK, Sorry. Please, show me your math because I think you're pulling numbers out of the sky.

 

[DirtMechanic]

OK, Sorry. Please, show me your math because I think you're pulling numbers out of the sky.

Not uncommon to miss the ratio as you keep coming back to that point. Tetters showed it and it was in the article I linked. If the bird was the size of a human, then its throughput of food would make its consumption of the chemical exceed the number given as safe by our own government regulators for humans. To eat what they would in nectar daily at 10g each, given the male weigh 3g avg, we have to increase my food by 3.33 times. The sheer quantity would overwhelm me, except the beer that first day only. In the case of the bird we would have to reduce the quantity of red dye down to the point it does not function as a dye to meet the same safety ratios given for the dye and humans. I suppose the same thinking might apply so substances in water flowing over fish gills compare to our lungs. The mass ratios matter.

 

[Becky]

Let's stop this squabble about dye, it seems pointless. Either the discussion goes back on topic or I close the thread.

 

[treeguy]

Not uncommon to miss the ratio as you keep coming back to that point. Tetters showed it and it was in the article I linked. If the bird was the size of a human, then its throughput of food would make its consumption of the chemical exceed the number given as safe by our own government regulators for humans. I weigh 36,237 male hummingbirds. 240lb. To eat what they would in nectar daily at 10g each, given the male weigh 3g avg, we have to increase my food by 3.33 times. The sheer quantity would overwhelm me, except the beer that first day only. In the case of the bird we would have to reduce the quantity of red dye down to the point it does not function as a dye to meet the same safety ratios given for the dye and humans. I suppose the same thinking might apply so substances in water flowing over fish gills compare to our lungs. The mass ratios matter.

Indeed, and that's exactly the kind of math that needs challenging. The Hummers drink 3.3 times their weight? Not according to the site cited below, or the same as human solid staples.

"Female hummingbirds are usually slightly larger and weigh a little bit more than their male counterparts. The average male ruby-throat hummingbird weighs between 2.4 grams and 3.6 grams, while the female ruby-throat tips the scale at 2.8 grams to 4.5 grams. "...

" A hummingbird uses a tremendous amount of energy as it flaps its wings up to 75 times every second during normal flight. To keep its weight up it must consume a tremendous amount of food. A hummingbird eats up to one-half of its total body weight in nectar every day. This is the equivalent of a human eating 155,000 calories."

I will use these hard numbers and generate real statistics. We shall see...