Seeking tips for planting a fall garden

[roadrunner]

May I ask what kind of mulch you use? I've started mulching my plants but I can't seem to get close enough to the roots withouts smashing the leaves of the crops.

I have used two mulches so far. Bark dust and shredded leaves.

I don't buy mulch, much like the guy in the video I linked above, I use all kinds of materials as mulch, which I gather from my neighbors that put out bags of yard waste for city pick-up.

In the video, they guy uses the analogy of one's healthy diet to ingredients of mulch, which is an apt analogy, but I look at things from a bio-diversity angle, thus I see mulch as adding to the bio-diversity of my soil life; therefore, I use virtually everything as mulch, not just one thing.

Much of what I use are leaves, but leaves of various plants, but not just leaves, I also break up sticks, because they are also important for feeding the soil and I bury logs into the ground, much like the hugelkultur method, but I also throw in my kitchen scraps and all other yard waste. And when the plants die, I simply chop and drop them back into the garden.

 

[Purrfluff]

I applied some well shredded leaves as mulch to a row of turnips. I think it basically blocked the soil off from receiving water. I had to shove a bunch of it away today in order to get enough water to the plant to un wilt it.

Which is pretty much the opposite of what I was hoping for. I probably dumped four gallons of water (via watering cans) to the turnips and they didn't perk up much.

I did accidentally pull the taproot of one plant out of the soil and it's about half an inch in diameter. These things may not be ready even by springtime.

My plan is to till all the plants back into the soil in spring. My hope is that most of these will overwinter and be a pseudo cover crop.

Basically, no one has ever really tried to improve this soil. We used the raised beds to get around it, which is fine. But I'd like to try and improve the soil if I can. Granted, that will take several years.

 

[Purrfluff]

I realize this has become something of an unsolicited blog and for that I apologize.

Update on 10/8/2017:

We finally had some rain. All of the plants have perked up as a result. There should be more rain this week which might actually be too much. But it's better than a desert.

All of the bok choy except for tiny seedlings insists on bolting. They seem far more bolt prone than any of the other plants.

I am now paying the price for my poor thinning earlier. The beets and other root crops are too close together and I think that is stunting their growth. But this also seems to apply to other plants. Some of the swiss chard was too close together and I think that caused the leaves to wilt. Presumably they don't have enough space to spread their roots.

I have no idea how to properly thin carrots. Each carrot has many little shoots. And they all look the same. I can't figure out which stems go to what carrot. I don't know how to trim the stems so that I destroy a single discrete carrot instead of cutting half the stems of several carrots instead.

The collards have gotten so large they are creating a sort of forest canopy in their raised bed. The spinach isn't happy but I'm impressed.

I think I was too late in planting the broccoli, brussels sprouts, and cauliflower. Those plants are still leggy and not very large. They have been growing and look healthy but I see no signs of florets, heads, or sprouts. I suppose it's theoretically possible they will start producing in November but I figure their growing days are over for the season. If they overwinter they might produce in spring.

Most of the peas that were eaten by the slugs did not bounce back. The few peas that didn't get munched, however, are flowering. I might get actual fresh peas before the first frost. The beans show signs they may wish to flower soon as well. They seem to have come back from being slug attacked better than the peas.

The lettuce and daikon radish seed I planted has germinated. I probably won't get much, if any, growth on them before winter.

The fava beans seem happy as a clam. The arugula has formed its own jungle.

The most annoying thing at the moment is that the cabbage (both red and green) show no signs of forming heads. They have healthy looking leaves that are getting larger but nothing like a head is forming.

Overall, the leafy greens have done well with the possible exception of the swiss chard. It probably just needs more time.

 

[Purrfluff]

Update on 10/14/2017:

Holy cow, I got turnips! I was poking around one of the turnip rows and to my great amazement there were turnip roots poking out of the ground. I harvested three of them. One was the size of a softball.

I am surprised by this because I think they matured faster than the seed packet said it would. I figured I wouldn't get anything out of them until December or possibly spring. Also, the radishes haven't matured yet and they are faster growing. Lastly, this is the only row of turnips that has matured and there are about three rows. It's possible I just hid the roots under mulch on the other rows.

I tried the leaves of the plant and they didn't have much flavor. And they were kind of spiny. So the tops went into the compost heap.

I realize it's weird to get this excited over a turnip but it's my first. Now I just have to figure out how to cook them. I would say the flavor of the turnip was like a radish but sweeter and less hot. The larger turnips seemed more spicy.

The bok choy insists in bolting. But I tried some and it has very little bitterness. A gave some to a friend who liked it in his stir fry. The bok choy is by far the boltiest (I know that's not a word) of the veggies. The radishes tried to toss up one seed stalk as did the turnips. But that's all. Everything else seems content to have leaves.

The rutabagas seem to be taking longer than the turnips to mature. I might have to dig one out just to check on that. The beets aren't even close to ready yet. I yanked several that were too close together and the roots are teeny. I think beets take a while though.

This garden is going has taught me that thinning is necessary. I haven't gotten a mature kohlrabi yet and I think that's because of inadequate thinning. I pulled out some today for way overdue thinning and noticed that the stems are not straight. Instead they have grown sideways and then do a 90 degree turn upward.

This also happened with the broccoli and the brussels sprouts. My guess is that this is the result of the plants being too close together or they aren't getting enough light and they are trying to grow towards it.

The seeds I planted in October have mostly germinated but aren't really growing. It was a stupid idea but perhaps the seedlings can serve as a sort of of half assed cover crop.

The dill has gotten large and leafy but hasn't flowered and probably isn't going to. It doesn't have much scent or flavor which I think may be the result of the copious rain.

Hopefully frost is still a month away.

 

[MaryMary]

I realize this has become something of an unsolicited blog and for that I apologize.

I'm reading, I'm reading!! I can't garden in October in Ohio, and I haven't grown a lot of what you're trying, but I am reading with interest!

If I might offer a piece of unsolicited advice - if you have any questions you really want addressed, you would probably get a better response to make a thread for each question (or vegetable) (or problem) individually. I quit counting at 25 different plants - I think you'd do better to break it up a bit. "Winter gardening" is one thing... but "This is doing this," and "that is doing that," and "How do I" and "Why is this..." well, I like reading it, but it's sort of a jumble...

I have no idea how to properly thin carrots.

I can't help you here. (I've grown carrots once, and was stingy with my seeds, and threw them in big pinches at the area I wanted them. It was a very haphazard kind of thing - more experiment than actually trying to grow them. .) I quoted this because this is an example of what I said above. I'm sure there are at least 10 people here that could explain how to thin vegetables... but if they have no interest in winter gardening, they'll probably never know you'd like to know.

I put in the parsnips purely out of stubbornness. I sowed Cobham Improved parsnips from Territorial seed. Out of at least a hundred seeds sown about a dozen germinated. This is from a variety with "vigorous germination". I'd hate to see what normal germination looks like.

I think part of the problem might be your soil temperature, instead of the seeds or seed company. (Can you get a temperature probe?) Here is a link to a couple charts that Chuck posted once, it's soil temperatures for seed germination, and days to appearance of seedlings at various temperatures. Very helpful. (Thanks again, Chuck!! .)

http://extension.oregonstate.edu/deschutes/sites/default/files/Horticulture/documents/soiltemps.pdf

My plan is to till all the plants back into the soil in spring. My hope is that most of these will overwinter and be a pseudo cover crop.

Basically, no one has ever really tried to improve this soil. We used the raised beds to get around it, which is fine. But I'd like to try and improve the soil if I can. Granted, that will take several years.

It would work quicker if you grew an actual cover crop!! Double-check my info, but if I plugged the right info into the search - - here is a link to a list of annuals that will grow in Oregon that are all part of the Fabaceae family, which will fix nitrogen in your soil.
https://plants.usda.gov/java/AdvancedSearchServlet (Oops, on looking at it again, I did not make sure that they were not invasive plants, so definitely do your research!! .)

Holy cow, I got turnips!

I love turnips!

I tried the leaves of the plant and they didn't have much flavor. And they were kind of spiny. So the tops went into the compost heap.

I think turnips are either grown for root vegetables or greens. Two varieties of the same plant, IOW. (Not that you can't eat it all, but different varieties are grown in accordance to what you want from it.)

I found this about turnip greens: (More to read at the site which may be helpful.)

The ideal time to begin eating turnip greens is when nighttime temperatures are in the 40s or cooler to bring out the sweetness in the greens. Greens that grow in hot weather can taste strong and bitter,
https://bonnieplants.com/growing/growing-turnip-greens/

I realize it's weird to get this excited over a turnip but it's my first. Now I just have to figure out how to cook them. I would say the flavor of the turnip was like a radish but sweeter and less hot. The larger turnips seemed more spicy.

They're good cooked with a roast. I like them boiled and mashed, like potatoes. I also like them boiled and mashed with potatoes. They add a nice zing!

A light frost will cause a lot of vegetables to make more sugars, and that will sweeten the taste a bit. I knew this about some of them, but not all the ones listed. http://www.thekitchn.com/food-science-vegetables-that-a-63776 You may want to harvest some before and some after a frost, to see which way you like them better!


I'll be watching for more updates!

 

[Purrfluff]

MaryMary, thank you for your reply! Excellent information!

You're right, I should break this up into smaller chunks but at this point I'm kind of doing stream of consciousness and I don't want to bug people with a bunch of threads. And I can assure you that unsolicited advice is always welcome.

The problem with thinning the carrots is that I can't figure out where one plant ends and another begins. I went after some stems with scissors but for all I know I just chopped half the stems off of a dozen plants and killed them all. I'm not sure I'm going to bother with carrots again. I can't really get then to grow worth a darn in my heavy clay soil and the raised bed space is too precious to waste. My mother tried growing carrots here before and after an entire year there was... nothing.

Thanks for the germination table. That's handy. I don't have a temperature probe but the daytime highs were pretty high when I put in the parsnip seeds. I really do need to get a soil thermometer.

A couple of other things could have gone wrong. Namely that the seeds were probably several months old. I read that parsnip seeds go bad fast. And even under ideal conditions germination is low. I may try again by ordering fresh seed next June. In my defense I did try to provide good germination conditions for the seeds. I put down potting soil and then vermiculite and then a little more potting soil. The idea being that they would stay moist at all times. That method worked well on carrot seed. Parsnips may just not be worth the trouble. The whole seed packet yielded about a dozen plants that are roughly a couples of inches tall now. I doubt they will survive the winter. If they do I'll keep them in place and see if they have a growth spurt in the spring. Maybe.

I read your link about turnip greens. It sounds like you're right and that the varieties you would grow for greens are different than those you grow for roots. The turnips I sowed are "purple top" from Ed Hume seed. The rutabagas are "laurentian" also from Ed Hume. I think Ed Hume largely does older open pollinated varieties so perhaps a newer hybrid would produce both good leaves and good roots.

So you can mix potatoes and turnips together in a mash? Would the different textures cause issues or do they blend together?

Yeah, I've read about frost causing sweeter veggies, at least for greens. I think the plants concentrate their sugars in their leaves to create a sort of natural anti-freeze. The anti-freeze in cars is glycol which is sort of a form of sugar so this makes sense.

The only real update is that I got my cousin to take a bunch of the greens, which was helpful. However, something attacked the tops of my pea shoots which isn't helpful. The damage looks like someone used a sharp knife on them. The cuts are rectangular and sharp. I strongly suspect birds.

 

[MaryMary]

Stream of consciousness can be good, it helps to ramble sometimes.
But don't look at it like bugging people with a bunch of threads. We all joined the forum because we like talking about plants. We like talking about plants with people who like plants.

I'd imagine every member here has learned something here. We want new threads!! (Umm, please don't start 25+ threads!!! .)

I'm not sure I'm going to bother with carrots again. I can't really get then to grow worth a darn in my heavy clay soil and the raised bed space is too precious to waste.

Do you have space for a small container garden? I have a friend who grows carrots in a couple of 5 gallon buckets...

I don't have a temperature probe but the daytime highs were pretty high when I put in the parsnip seeds. I really do need to get a soil thermometer.

Anything with a probe on it will work! Here's one for $10 at Home Depot. http://www.homedepot.com/p/Weber-Instant-Read-Grill-Thermometer-6492/203614381
As long as it gets to the temperature range you need to measure, don't lock yourself into the idea you're looking for a "soil thermometer." ("Specialty tools" are often more expensive. .)

So you can mix potatoes and turnips together in a mash? Would the different textures cause issues or do they blend together?

Mashed with potatoes is really my favorite way to eat turnips. You'll have to boil the turnips a little longer, they're more dense, so take longer. The bigger ones you may want to peel. I've never really noticed a textural difference, but I guess it should be said that my potatoes usually have a few lumps in them anyway.

 

[Purrfluff]

Don't worry, I don't plan on spamming the forum.

I may try carrots in containers. I do have a couple in a pot. The big issue is figuring out how to thin them. What I might do is use jiffy pots. Dump a couple of carrot seeds into each pot and if I get germination I can transplant them to bigger pots. I know carrots don't like to be transplanted but stuff in peat pots seems to transplant with relative ease. I was able to pull it off with several things this year.

I actually do have an instant read thermometer. I got it for bread but if it works in the soil, so be it.

I'll try the potato/turnip mix. I suspect a lot of the turnips will come on all at once. It is supposed to rain all week. Which is annoying but the upside is that the roots and plants will be well watered.

The rutabagas are going to take longer I think. Maybe not ready until spring.

What I really want to grow in the spring is honeydew melon. Doing that in the Willamette Valley is considered exceptionally stupid. But I'd like to get some grow lights and potting six and see if I can start them under grow lights. If the weather cooperates I might be able to transplant them out in May or June and see if I can hit paydirt.

 

[Linky]

Ok so I grow in the UK so things might be slightly different but feel free to disregard what doesn't sound useful!

Parsnips - a real pain to germinate! Soil HAS to be warm. People here tend to sow seed in late May/into June. If you want guaranteed germination you can chit the seeds (let me know if you do it know what this is) and then sow into toilet rolls or paper pots before planting out but this takes time. Or you can chit and then sow direct - because you know which seeds are viable you sow them more thinly and don't need to thin

Rutabagas - I think this is what we call swede? They are slow growers (again we sow in May for Autumn into winter crop) - and are greedy feeders - they like well manured soil about a month or so before you sow them. I used to sow them in seed trays and then prick them out into the soil. I would get huge ones like this.

Sprouts - also slow growers. They like very firm soil - tread hard around the plant (yes really!). They also don't like being rocked in the wind and will either sulk or any sporouts they are growing will 'blow' so bear that in mind and stake/protect as necessary. I also needed to lime my soil for any of the brassica family to do well - it will depend in how alkaline your soil is

 

[Purrfluff]

Update on 11/2/2017:

Things have slowed down greatly in the garden but there is still some activity. According to the calendars the first frost should be coming this month. I suspect most of the brassicas will survive.

I transplanted some of the stuff I thinned into a free raised bed. They did not like it. Most of them still seem to be alive though.

The birds have basically destroyed all of the new pea seedlings. It was getting way too late to get anything out of them anyways. I did put up flash tape to dissuade them and it did no good. I think we've bad it on our blueberries for so long they are no longer afraid of it.

Some of the cauliflowers starts I bought have produced tiny heads. I hope they get bigger. None of the brussels sprouts have put up stalks yet. I think they will have to wait until spring. Assuming they survive. They may.

A few of the "Apollo Broccoli" starts I got (these are a broccolini knock off) have started to produce tiny florets, which is excellent. But none of the regular broccoli (ether bought as starts or direct seeded) have produced heads. Probably planted too late, like everything else.

The bean plants are rapidly dying. Their leaves are turning black and fallen off. In hopes of using it as a fungicide I sprayed neem oil. It made no difference.

The beets aren't coming along as quickly as I expected. They also appear to be the favorite food for whatever is eating my garden. If they haven't produced useful sized beets by mid March they they are getting ripped out.

This is the other major dilemma I may be facing in the spring. Plants that overwintered should restart growth in spring and hopefully hit maturity in late spring. But I need that garden space for spring crops. I'd prefer to just rip out/till under everything in the spring and start over.

But it seems like a waste to destroy plants that are 3/4 of the way to maturity. In addition, every single square inch of the garden is taken up by fall planted crops. If I'm going to put in spring crops I have to destroy something. In addition, I want to plan space for the planting of fall crops in July and early August. I am determined to get fall crops in on time next year.

Which then brings up the issue of crop rotation. Almost every raised bed in the garden has had brassicas in it. I don't see any way to avoid planting brassicas in those same raised beds again in fall of 2018. I was hoping to "cheat" crop rotation by sticking some non brassica spring crops in those beds in March. Which probably isn't enough time for a proper rotation anyway.

How do you guys handle crop rotation in a year round garden?

 

[Purrfluff]

Update on 11/13/2017:

The garden is starting to slow to a crawl. I might get a teensy bit more growth out of something plants but growth has pretty much shut down. My main task has been to capture the leaves that have fallen from the trees and stockpiling them. They will be a carbon source in the spring and summer for the compost heap.

I may have to toss crop rotation out the window. What may end up happening is that plants that overwinter may not accomplish anything substantial until next May or June. At that point all the spring crops will have been put in and I'll be looking into planting for fall harvest again. Which means that brassicas will dominate again.

It's possible that I could toss in a month long cover crop once the current plants go to seed.

Or I may just tear out everything and start over from scratch in March. This would have the advantage of letting me "reset" the gardening schedule. Next year I am determined to get crops like broccoli and beets started by July.

Most of the stuff currently in the ground was sown from seed in early August.

The following stuff did not mature to the point of being harvestable:

Broccoli, cauliflower, brussels sprouts, beets, rutabagas, carrots, beans, kohlrabi, cabbage (both red and green), green onions, leeks, radicchio, garlic, and Chinese (napa) cabbage.

Oddly, the swiss chard isn't doing well but all of the other leafy greens are. I thought chard was supposed to like fall weather. The spinach is making up for it though.

So I assume these are the things I need to sow by July next year. Which means I need to find space for them by July. I don't know whether to intentionally set aside garden space in March or just see if I can tear something out in July to make room.

I need to get some cottonseed meal to try and jumpstart the compost heap. I don't think the grass I am getting from the lawn has enough nitrogen in it. I will probably have to import compost in the spring.

I was pleased to be able to use my own broccoli raab, snow peas, and bok choy in a stir fry the other day. My heart swelled with pride.

 

[Purrfluff]

Update on 11/29/2017:

Again, I apologize that this thread has turned into an unwanted blog. I really am still seeking comment.

Since no sane person will read this entire post I am going to ask up front about rutabagas: I pulled some rutabagas and they were pretty small. But they were also dense and starting to get tough. Should I yank them all now or wait until they increase in size? According to the seed packet they shouldn't be mature yet.

The rain has been almost non stop. This has not, for the most part, been good for the garden. I'm starting to see more evidence of fungi and rot. Also, any kind of treatment I put on my plants washes off in a matter of hours. I really need a week of dry so I can clean the mold and attack the insects. But that's not going to happen anytime soon.

It was dry today so I was able to get out there and evaluate the garden.

Now that I am looking for whitefly damage I realized there is a lot more of it than I initially thought. I first thought they had only gone after the cauliflower and broccoli. I was wrong. They've done damage to just about all of the brassicas as well as the spinach. I don't know whether I am dealing with the cabbage whitefly or some assortment of whiteflies.

I was able to confirm whiteflies because I looked under the spinach the other day and found them. Teeny little white bugs with wings; almost translucent. And the damage on the plants is consistent with their activity.

The plants which I think have taken it hardest so far are the red cabbage. Some of my red cabbage plants came from a nursery and some from seed.

I suspect the reason those plants have taken the most damage is because the damage was the least obvious on them. The darker color made the sooty mold less obvious. Also, when leaves started curling up I assumed it was just the leaves starting to form heads. Some of the curling was the result of head formation. But some of it was whitefly damage.

And the curled leaves protected the whiteflies and their attendant mold from both my sight and the elements.

I think there has been enough damage that the heads won't properly form on some of the plants. Perhaps most of them.

If I seem like I'm grinding my teeth over this it's because I am. I'm pissed off that I didn't notice this in time to stop the whiteflies. But I was too focused on the cabbage worms that were doing more immediate and visible damage. And the BT has no effect on the whiteflies.

At the very least this is a good lesson in looking closely at the plants and being paranoid about curled leaves.

I've sprayed insecticidal soap and neem oil a couple of times. I think it kills the whiteflies when they get hit with it but they just fly off and come back. I think the soap stops being effective once it dries. In which case the rain might not be a terrible thing because it will wash the useless residue off the plants.

I was able to get most of the sooty mold off with sprays of water. But some of it appears to have taken root on the leaves and won't wash off. Or it's already inside the forming heads and I can't get to it. In the hopes of controlling this I got some Bonide copper fungicide and sprayed it on the worst hit plants today. I hope this puts the kibosh on the mold. If I'm lucky it might kill some whiteflies as well. A man can hope.

Any leafy greens that didn't get the copper fungicide got sprayed with insecticidal soap. I really hope this works because if it doesn't I'm going to be up a creek without a paddle come spring. I assume the whiteflies will be more numerous during spring and summer. Along with everything else that wants to eat my crops.

If anyone has experience dealing with whiteflies I'd be glad to learn their wisdom.

On the next dry day I think I'm going to spray BT once again. I am seeing some holes chomped in some of my brassicas. I haven't seen any cabbage moths or worms but better safe than sorry. I was rather hoping they had shut down for the season.

On a more pleasant note frost has yet to hit so almost all of the plants are still alive. I have about four nice looking heads of cauliflower. I tied leaves around two of them to blanch them. This is an experiment. They might blanch or they might get a fungus from trapping the moisture under the leaves. I expect the blanching to work better in the summer.

And some of the Apollo Brokali (a Broccolini copy) plants have produced quite a few side shoots. I happily stir fried them. The broccoli raab is producing nicely. The bok choy refuses to stop bolting but at least it also produces lots of edible leaves.

The rutabagas I addressed at the stop. They were tougher in texture than the turnips but they had better flavor. The mustard greens seem indestructible. The kale is doing nicely and I am hoping it will continue to provide over the winter.

So, in summation: I hate white flies, cabbage worms, and slugs. I want to kill them all with my white hot fires of rage.

I can't really blame the birds though. They must be getting desperate if they ate the leaves off my shallots.

 

[alp]

I think it might be a good idea to drape a net over all your cabbages. As once a butterfly gets near them, you've no chance of a decent harvest. My Chinese leaf and Pak Choi also bolted. I think it might be the hot weather .. I do have some for stirfry though. But bolting is a major issue for Pak choi at the end of my garden which might be too hot for them.

Search on youtube and I think you will find it a treasure trove!

 

[Purrfluff]

Update on 12/22/2017:

Real winter has finally set in. The last couple of weeks have been frosty. Though the weather gave me a break with some above freezing nights and rain.

The freezing did much damage, as I expected. Some plants have fared better than others, also as I expected.

Some stuff ate it as soon as the first frost hit. This includes the nasturtiums and marigolds. The stems and leaves immediately collapsed. The dill also died (though it was on its way out anyways). Most of the lettuce plants died as well.

Some plants are their last legs and won't survive much longer. This includes the swiss chard, peas, and what remains of the lettuce.

Other stuff I am fairly sure will croak but might make it over winter or at least partway through January. Things like arugula, bok choy, endive, kohlrabi, beets, carrots, red cabbage, turnips, green onions (scallions), and rutabagas.

The kale appears almost completely unfazed by the cold. The corn salad/mache is apparently bulletproof. Oddly, the immature brussels sprouts plants seem fine as well. They haven't produced sprouts and won't until late spring but they don't appear damaged. Same for the broccoli and most of the cauliflower. The savoy cabbage and Chinese napa cabbage haven't even come close to forming heads but they appear to be fine.

While the red sails lettuce and bibb lettuce bit the big one some of the looseleaf green lettuce and the Little Gem lettuce are doing okay. I don't expect them to make it all the way through winter but I have been pleasantly surprised at how tough the Little Gem has been.

About half the spinach died but the remainder seems healthy. The collards refuse to die. The stems of the fava beans broke during frost but I think the main plants themselves are sill alive.

Overall, less stuff died than I would have expected. I think the kale will make it all winter and will probably be my main salad greens source this winter. I can't say I'm crazy about the flavor of the corn salad but it's better than nothing.

I am trying to think of what is still alive in the garden primarily as a cover crop. Something to be tilled back into the soil around February or early march.

I'm surprised about how much more I hate winter since I started gardening. It's too cold and too wet to get anything done out there. I am practically counting the days until I can sow seed again in the spring. I want to grow things again. I want to spend hours out in the garden hoeing rows and fiddling with seedlings.

This gardening thing is infectious.

 

[roadrunner]

I've got the following in my fall/winter garden:
Carrots
Brussel Sprouts
Artichokes
Broccoli
Fava Beans
Various Peas
Oats (Cat Grass)
Lentil Beans
Crimson Clover (it took three days from planting until having seedlings)

I'm sure I'm forgetting something...