Planting leggy transplants

[headfullofbees]

It maximises the number of days when the temperature is right for setting fruit.
In my case, it maximises the number of nights when the night temp is warm enough; in Chuck's case it'll maximise the number of days when the temp is cool enough.

 

[Chuck]

I have the earliest tomatoes, and hence, the longest season, on our allotments, which have over 100 growers, planting my tomatoes at the same depth as when potted on.
Men who have grown tomatoes for decades longer than I have, have never had tomatoes in June. I was picking tomatoes last year in the 2nd week of June.
That gives an idea of how much of the season is wasted by planting deep.
Chuck, if you have enough plants, & don't trust my judgement, plant 3 or 4 shallow, plant 3 or 4 trenched, & do what you will with the rest. If you have 90 plants, you can afford to, yes?

Everything is already planted. I did trench or lay down 4 plants on the end of rows. I have 5 plants that were seeded later than the others and they were planted shallow, as normal. Only the real leggy plants were planted very deep. I planted them as to their size, many about 6 inches deep and others up to a foot deep. I had 4 Jet Star tomatoes that were VERY leggy. They are now, by far, the largest plants in the tomato patch, even larger than the Cherokee Purples. They haven't set fruit yet but the Cherokees have. This is not a very good year so far for experimenting for this question of deep vs shallow because of all the rain we are having.
I don't think planting deep is wasting the season. I think the reason you are getting longer crops is because of all the organic techniques that you use. But then your climate is so much different than mine it is impossible to tell.

 

[DirtMechanic]

It maximises the number of days when the temperature is right for setting fruit.
In my case, it maximises the number of nights when the night temp is warm enough; in Chuck's case it'll maximise the number of days when the temp is cool enough.

I suspect you did well dating.

 

[Chuck]

It maximises the number of days when the temperature is right for setting fruit.
In my case, it maximises the number of nights when the night temp is warm enough; in Chuck's case it'll maximise the number of days when the temp is cool enough.

I don't really know what we are arguing about. The roots, either shallow or deep are not affected by nighttime low temperatures. What is affected is the blooms

 

[headfullofbees]

I don't really know what we are arguing about. The roots, either shallow or deep are not affected by nighttime low temperatures. What is affected is the blooms

If the plants have to replace defunct roots, then obviously that'll affect the plant as a whole, for two reasons:
1) the energy taken to replace the roots.
2) the lack of function of surface roots whilst there are none.

 

[headfullofbees]

I suspect you did well dating.

You never lose it.

 

[Chuck]

If the plants have to replace defunct roots, then obviously that'll affect the plant as a whole, for two reasons:
1) the energy taken to replace the roots.
2) the lack of function of surface roots whilst there are none.

That is what I am trying to say, they are not replacing defunct roots. It is basically adding to them in a different place. There are no top roots early on. If you have a plant 16 inches tall with a very small diameter stem what are you to do to save the plant. It would be difficult to stake it up like a sapling tree and maintain this. How does anyone know if the bottom roots keep growing albeit slowly or stop at a certain point and become defunct? If it weren't for the bottom roots growing there wouldn't be any top roots at all.

 

[headfullofbees]

That is what I am trying to say, they are not replacing defunct roots. It is basically adding to them in a different place. There are no top roots early on. If you have a plant 16 inches tall with a very small diameter stem what are you to do to save the plant. It would be difficult to stake it up like a sapling tree and maintain this. How does anyone know if the bottom roots keep growing albeit slowly or stop at a certain point and become defunct? If it weren't for the bottom roots growing there wouldn't be any top roots at all.

Are you saying that tomatoes can use these roots 2-3 inches down, and 6-9 inches down, but can't use them inbetween?
If you are, please explain why, and if not, why the stem doesn't grow them all the way down, since any part of a tomato's stem is capable of growing roots.
If the original roots are still functioning, why waste the effort growing another set?

 

[Chuck]

What causes top roots anyway. Its gotta be temperature

Are you saying that tomatoes can use these roots 2-3 inches down, and 6-9 inches down, but can't use them inbetween?
If you are, please explain why, and if not, why the stem doesn't grow them all the way down, since any part of a tomato's stem is capable of growing roots.
If the original roots are still functioning, why waste the effort growing another set?

Why don't tomatoes grow roots all the way down the stem? I don't know but I do know that some heirlooms have aerial roots so I must presume that it has something to do with either sunshine or temperature or both. Why waste the effort? I think it is a survival tool. Tomatoes were originally vines, not these hybridized versions we have today. Where ever a vine was touching the ground it would take root and grow until the next time. Just like air layering a fig tree.

 

[headfullofbees]

What causes top roots anyway. Its gotta be temperature

Why don't tomatoes grow roots all the way down the stem? I don't know but I do know that some heirlooms have aerial roots so I must presume that it has something to do with either sunshine or temperature or both. Why waste the effort? I think it is a survival tool. Tomatoes were originally vines, not these hybridized versions we have today. Where ever a vine was touching the ground it would take root and grow until the next time. Just like air layering a fig tree.

I agree. I agree entirely. I agree so much because, to some extent, you're making my point.
Modern hybrids are still either bushes or vines, & still act in the same way.
So we are agreed that tomatoes can make roots anywhere along the stem if it is advantageous, but won't bother if it's not? You wrote, "Why waste the effort?"
In my view, this shows that the buried roots are defunct, as the tomato:
1) Cannot know that being buried deeper is a possibility.
2) Will make roots only in the top couple of inches, no matter how deep it is planted.
So if you bury a tomato, say 9 inches deeper than originally, then there will be a 7 inch gap between the new and the original surface roots, which will be 9-11 inches underground.
If, however, you were to bury your tomatoes 18 inches deeper than originally, (unlikely, but possible) it would still only grow roots in the top couple of inches, and leave a 16 inch gap to the original roots. IT WOULD NOT GROW A THIRD SET 9-11 INCHES UNDERGROUND, even though it could.
It logically follows that surface roots at 9-11 inches underground are useless, or it would. You wrote, "Why waste the effort."
Thus, by burying tomatoes deeper, it is you who is wasting the effort, by making the original roots useless and forcing the plant to grow a new set.
It also has a tap root in order to suck up water and nutrients from depth.

 

[Chuck]

I agree. I agree entirely. I agree so much because, to some extent, you're making my point.
Modern hybrids are still either bushes or vines, & still act in the same way.
So we are agreed that tomatoes can make roots anywhere along the stem if it is advantageous, but won't bother if it's not? You wrote, "Why waste the effort?"
In my view, this shows that the buried roots are defunct, as the tomato:
1) Cannot know that being buried deeper is a possibility.
2) Will make roots only in the top couple of inches, no matter how deep it is planted.
So if you bury a tomato, say 9 inches deeper than originally, then there will be a 7 inch gap between the new and the original surface roots, which will be 9-11 inches underground.
If, however, you were to bury your tomatoes 18 inches deeper than originally, (unlikely, but possible) it would still only grow roots in the top couple of inches, and leave a 16 inch gap to the original roots. IT WOULD NOT GROW A THIRD SET 9-11 INCHES UNDERGROUND, even though it could.
It logically follows that surface roots at 9-11 inches underground are useless, or it would. You wrote, "Why waste the effort."
Thus, by burying tomatoes deeper, it is you who is wasting the effort, by making the original roots useless and forcing the plant to grow a new set.
It also has a tap root in order to suck up water and nutrients from depth.

Let's define defunct and at what time period this happens. Does defunct mean useless? Lifeless? Inoperative? Unusable? Non functioning? These bottom roots are functional up to and until the top roots are established. Having said this the original question was what to do with leggy tomatoes, plant them on their side or deep. I say it doesn't make any difference, just an individuals preference and his soil and climate. Is what you are saying do not do either and plant as normal? We both agree that a plant can grow roots anywhere along its stem and the only variable factor as to depth or planting on its side is the length of the stem. We also agree that roots do not grow between the top and the bottom. Somehow we have gone off on a tangent here. Just what are we discussing here? I think it is about the bottom roots loosing their usefulness after being buried deeply. I say that up to the time we pull the plant out of the ground the lower roots still have a function and are not useless, otherwise they would die and just leave the top roots to take over everything.

 

[TomatoNut]

Planting your tomatoes deeply works good for other people besides me, and they recommend it as well. These recommendations are from books written by experienced tomato growers.

 

[Chuck]

Planting your tomatoes deeply works good for other people besides me, and they recommend it as well. These recommendations are from books written by experienced tomato growers.

I really don't think it matters except if your climate is really dry or your soil sandy whether you plant deep or on their side in which case I think deeper is better. In cases of cooler weather and clayish soils I would think on their sides would be better.

 

[headfullofbees]

"These bottom roots are functional up to and until the top roots are established"
How do you know this?
Your tomatoes have a tap root to perform all the functions of deep roots, in terms of uptake of water and nutrients; these surface roots are more for breathing, which I don't believe you'd argue is a task that can be fulfilled.

" I say that up to the time we pull the plant out of the ground the lower roots still have a function and are not useless, otherwise they would die and just leave the top roots to take over everything."

What makes you so sure that they don't?
Since it is not possible for tomato plants to naturally have that type of root at that depth, why would it have the facility to dispose of them? It is more likely to be feeding them.

Trench planting is a different matter; all the roots are at the depth they were meant for, and you may (eventually) benefit, but it will still cost you time at the start of the growing season.

The point is: deep-planting causes the plant, which is already leggy, to divert energy to root production, which can only take it from plant/tomato production. If it already has all the roots it needs, "Why waste the effort?"

Is it not the case that you are limited to two short growing seasons because of Texan summer heat?
Is it not the case that you need as many flowers ready for pollination as early as possible between when the night-time temperature is too cold to set fruit, and the daytime temperature is not too hot?

Are you not gasping for a real tomato by the time the season starts, and to bring that forward a week or so would be a godsend?

THEN DON'T PLANT DEEP.

Why do you think they never catch up? Just the stems? Why would that slow them down?

 

[headfullofbees]

Planting your tomatoes deeply works good for other people besides me, and they recommend it as well. These recommendations are from books written by experienced tomato growers.

You think I haven't corrected seasoned professional growers before?
Right and wrong aren't democratic.
They are wrong too.