I didn't actually see your last photo's before posting. Dang! That is some kind of green cover! Your soil is going to be smiling for sure, as will you! Haha! Yea, 25I would think would shut it down, but I swear my grass is still growing up here too! Not too fast, but it hasn't gone dormant yet.
How much can you really grow? Sustainability.
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Meadowlark
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Country,
Thanks for your replies...so many times the person never responds and I appreciate a good discussion...and we both learn.
1) One of the principal benefits of the use of cover crops is in the soil rotation they provide. If you are going to garden in the same location year after year....and I've been pulling produce out of this same garden space for over 40 years...it is absolutely mandatory to rotate your crops. The cover crops fill that requirement. Especially for plants like potatoes and tomatoes and corn, without rotations yields fall significantly in just a year and continue to drop without rotations.
It is true that you have to give up some space the way I do it, but space is in abundance here and I just use a larger area to accommodate my use of rotational cover crops. In fact as I'm aging, I find I can actually reduce my producing volume and work by just planting cover crops...one way to reduce the footprint.
You mentioned wheat as a cover...and I use it and its probably the most hardy of all the plants I use. It has survived temps falling into the teens, a rare event here.
2) When you grow 200 pounds of onions, 200 pounds of potatoes, and over 100 dozen ears of corn, it pays to develop good storage techniques. For onions, I use a corner of an equipment storage shed that gets good circulation...but one of the keys to successful onion storage is in the preparation. Try to limit water intake in the week prior to harvest, let the sun thoroughly dry them after pulling, and before storing, remove the tops making sure the onions do not touch other. I lay them on a "bed" of raised chicken wire and have found that to work better than hanging them in sacks or whatever. I'm able to store them with some loss from one harvesting season to the next...in spite of what the "experts" say.
For potatoes, I find they need more temperature control. I have a "well house" which has a storage tank that gets refilled from use and that water provides some summer cooling. I keep the spuds in the dark, not touching and in the coolest place I can find. That hollowed out area you have sounds to me like a great candidate for potato storage.
For corn, I go to great lengths to have continuous production of fresh corn as long as possible in order to enjoy the fresh taste by stager planting crops through out the growing season. I harvest corn starting in June and continue through September. The excess goes to the freezer.
By doing this year after year, I believe my garden soil is probably nearly optimal, near perfect and capable of sustaining production indefinitely.
Here's my primary onion storage area:
Potatoes go here:
I find a potato bucket to work better than bags however as touching is almost eliminated with layers of straw
Thanks for your replies...so many times the person never responds and I appreciate a good discussion...and we both learn.
1) One of the principal benefits of the use of cover crops is in the soil rotation they provide. If you are going to garden in the same location year after year....and I've been pulling produce out of this same garden space for over 40 years...it is absolutely mandatory to rotate your crops. The cover crops fill that requirement. Especially for plants like potatoes and tomatoes and corn, without rotations yields fall significantly in just a year and continue to drop without rotations.
It is true that you have to give up some space the way I do it, but space is in abundance here and I just use a larger area to accommodate my use of rotational cover crops. In fact as I'm aging, I find I can actually reduce my producing volume and work by just planting cover crops...one way to reduce the footprint.
You mentioned wheat as a cover...and I use it and its probably the most hardy of all the plants I use. It has survived temps falling into the teens, a rare event here.
2) When you grow 200 pounds of onions, 200 pounds of potatoes, and over 100 dozen ears of corn, it pays to develop good storage techniques. For onions, I use a corner of an equipment storage shed that gets good circulation...but one of the keys to successful onion storage is in the preparation. Try to limit water intake in the week prior to harvest, let the sun thoroughly dry them after pulling, and before storing, remove the tops making sure the onions do not touch other. I lay them on a "bed" of raised chicken wire and have found that to work better than hanging them in sacks or whatever. I'm able to store them with some loss from one harvesting season to the next...in spite of what the "experts" say.
For potatoes, I find they need more temperature control. I have a "well house" which has a storage tank that gets refilled from use and that water provides some summer cooling. I keep the spuds in the dark, not touching and in the coolest place I can find. That hollowed out area you have sounds to me like a great candidate for potato storage.
For corn, I go to great lengths to have continuous production of fresh corn as long as possible in order to enjoy the fresh taste by stager planting crops through out the growing season. I harvest corn starting in June and continue through September. The excess goes to the freezer.
By doing this year after year, I believe my garden soil is probably nearly optimal, near perfect and capable of sustaining production indefinitely.
Here's my primary onion storage area:
Potatoes go here:
I find a potato bucket to work better than bags however as touching is almost eliminated with layers of straw
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I suppose some folks don't like the public reading their responses, and I get that, but I am over that stage and it is great to have discussion with like minded and enthusiastic people.
I do have the property to create what I need to follow what you're doing, and again, I think it's a great technique and look forward to applying it.
I am lacking in the implements department, but have my grandfathers old Troy Built rear tine tiller. It's old, but it's a beast! I am looking into a tiller for my 425 John Deere, and if that happens, I'll be set up well.
I have been gardening for many years, but following what I learned from my dad and grandparents, that never thought about soil maintenance, or at least they never discussed it with me. I've had pretty successful harvests and have rotated every year. I also noticed the years I have grown potato's that the best years were following areas that were brand new tilled garden that was once mowed yard. Always figured they were sucking the life out of the soil and would amend with whatever I could get. Grass clippings, alfalfa cutting (used as mulch and weed control) and my chicken coop cleanings for the season. I raise around 20 Cornish X Rocks for meat every spring and they eat and crap continuously! Makes some hot compost, but in the right application it seems to work great. This year, I collected about 25 bags of city folks yard refuse and am doing a pile of them with the Berkley Hot Compost Method. Will discuss that if you're interested...
So, the storage of onions is something I'll try. We're in, and have been in a drought up here. Our onions suffered because of it. I did water a few times, but they were smaller than they should have been with ample moisture. We eat a boat load of onions, so expanding their production is on the horizon. I was taught to hang them in bundles by the stalks and had decent luck drying them this way and then used mesh bags for the remaining storage period. If I had 200lbs of them I'm not sure how this would have worked and if your method works I'd jump in on it. Was also reading about the gassing effect they have on other produce, so will have to consider this and get the plans worked out.
Potato's are a staple as well, especially with two competitive swimmers (1 in college and one waiting on the Olympic trials to end his career), both in the house during the summer and one back home permanently now. (He is a future gardener and has planted garlic for our first time!) Production next season will be in newly tilled yard in the expansion, so think it should be decent.... After that they will hopefully be in well prepped soil that will satisfy their needs.
For the storage, I have also been monitoring RH% and it's hovering in the 58%. If I am reading other info correctly, I may need to up this so we don't dehydrate any. It is a cement floor that I cut a trench in after heavy rains allowed water in and out on the basement floor. Quite an interesting experience there! LOL! The monitoring of this area is in prep for another father/son venture of growing mushrooms! I've found it extremely interesting and hope to have our first flush of Blue Oyster around Christmas. I know this are has potential to fill the needs and will make it work.
Lastly, to overcome any future droughts, I do have a 2.5 acre pond that I am hoping to use for irrigation, if needed. I have filled up a 30 gal tank and used that on our tomato's, but 30 gal doesn't last long and it's a pain in the A to do it. I have a 500 gal tank I've been considering moving to the garden site, but worry about it being unsightly... A gas powered pump could be used for irrigation or filling the tank.
Great discussion here! And, I thank you too for carrying it on. Cheers and TTFN! Have a project to tend to.
James
I do have the property to create what I need to follow what you're doing, and again, I think it's a great technique and look forward to applying it.
I am lacking in the implements department, but have my grandfathers old Troy Built rear tine tiller. It's old, but it's a beast! I am looking into a tiller for my 425 John Deere, and if that happens, I'll be set up well.
I have been gardening for many years, but following what I learned from my dad and grandparents, that never thought about soil maintenance, or at least they never discussed it with me. I've had pretty successful harvests and have rotated every year. I also noticed the years I have grown potato's that the best years were following areas that were brand new tilled garden that was once mowed yard. Always figured they were sucking the life out of the soil and would amend with whatever I could get. Grass clippings, alfalfa cutting (used as mulch and weed control) and my chicken coop cleanings for the season. I raise around 20 Cornish X Rocks for meat every spring and they eat and crap continuously! Makes some hot compost, but in the right application it seems to work great. This year, I collected about 25 bags of city folks yard refuse and am doing a pile of them with the Berkley Hot Compost Method. Will discuss that if you're interested...
So, the storage of onions is something I'll try. We're in, and have been in a drought up here. Our onions suffered because of it. I did water a few times, but they were smaller than they should have been with ample moisture. We eat a boat load of onions, so expanding their production is on the horizon. I was taught to hang them in bundles by the stalks and had decent luck drying them this way and then used mesh bags for the remaining storage period. If I had 200lbs of them I'm not sure how this would have worked and if your method works I'd jump in on it. Was also reading about the gassing effect they have on other produce, so will have to consider this and get the plans worked out.
Potato's are a staple as well, especially with two competitive swimmers (1 in college and one waiting on the Olympic trials to end his career), both in the house during the summer and one back home permanently now. (He is a future gardener and has planted garlic for our first time!) Production next season will be in newly tilled yard in the expansion, so think it should be decent.... After that they will hopefully be in well prepped soil that will satisfy their needs.
For the storage, I have also been monitoring RH% and it's hovering in the 58%. If I am reading other info correctly, I may need to up this so we don't dehydrate any. It is a cement floor that I cut a trench in after heavy rains allowed water in and out on the basement floor. Quite an interesting experience there! LOL! The monitoring of this area is in prep for another father/son venture of growing mushrooms! I've found it extremely interesting and hope to have our first flush of Blue Oyster around Christmas. I know this are has potential to fill the needs and will make it work.
Lastly, to overcome any future droughts, I do have a 2.5 acre pond that I am hoping to use for irrigation, if needed. I have filled up a 30 gal tank and used that on our tomato's, but 30 gal doesn't last long and it's a pain in the A to do it. I have a 500 gal tank I've been considering moving to the garden site, but worry about it being unsightly... A gas powered pump could be used for irrigation or filling the tank.
Great discussion here! And, I thank you too for carrying it on. Cheers and TTFN! Have a project to tend to.
James
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Durgan is a bit pessimistic in my view.
There is a lot to learn, there are plenty of mistakes to be made.
However, we older growers perhaps forget that there was no internet around when we started, nor access to the experience of such fine growers as Durgan or Chuck.
That's what powers human advance; we don't all have to invent the wheel.
Meadowlark
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View attachment 73864
James,
I'm a big believer in having and using equipment in gardening. I often tell people, when they marvel at the size of my garden, that it is far easier to manage a large garden with equipment than it is to have a small garden without. I've done it both ways and equipment is definitely better.
I think that 425 JD is about 20 hp, right? That is about the same hp as my small Kubota that I use for gardening. Plenty of hp for most garden jobs. I don't have a tiller for it but use an old cultivator instead. My hand weeding almost obsolete. If you get a tiller for the 425, you will really be set up for some great gardening!
James,
I'm a big believer in having and using equipment in gardening. I often tell people, when they marvel at the size of my garden, that it is far easier to manage a large garden with equipment than it is to have a small garden without. I've done it both ways and equipment is definitely better.
I think that 425 JD is about 20 hp, right? That is about the same hp as my small Kubota that I use for gardening. Plenty of hp for most garden jobs. I don't have a tiller for it but use an old cultivator instead. My hand weeding almost obsolete. If you get a tiller for the 425, you will really be set up for some great gardening!
I kinda like your old school set up! I had a 52 8N about 15 years ago, but sold it. Wish I had it back most days! But, the 425 is probably better suited for most of my needs. It is the Kawasaki 20HP motor in it. Your style of gardening is definitely suited for for the use of implements. Amending the soil I think is key and would be way too much work without them.
Is your soil naturally as sandy as it appears? Our garden area is actually pretty full of grey clay. I added a couple hundred pounds of sand the second year it was in its current location and thought it helped let the water seep much better. I think I need more and have plans to add it this spring, especially after tilling up more area.
Do you use your own potato's for seed?
Is your soil naturally as sandy as it appears? Our garden area is actually pretty full of grey clay. I added a couple hundred pounds of sand the second year it was in its current location and thought it helped let the water seep much better. I think I need more and have plans to add it this spring, especially after tilling up more area.
Do you use your own potato's for seed?
Meadowlark
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1) My garden soil was originally part of a hay meadow a century or more ago. As such, weed control was hugely important to me when I first started gardening in it...and cover cropping solved that problem. No question, I wouldn't do this without implements.
2) Do you use your own potato's for seed? Some, but not principally. I use some of the smaller ones for seed occasionally but mostly rely on purchasing seed potatoes. Been doing it that way in the same space for well over 40 years and the potato production just gets better and better.
I'm assuming your Kawasaki is diesel? That's the way to go in my opinion. Reliability and long life. My old Kubota is worth as much today as what I paid for it over 40 years ago....not much I can say that about, LOL.
2) Do you use your own potato's for seed? Some, but not principally. I use some of the smaller ones for seed occasionally but mostly rely on purchasing seed potatoes. Been doing it that way in the same space for well over 40 years and the potato production just gets better and better.
I'm assuming your Kawasaki is diesel? That's the way to go in my opinion. Reliability and long life. My old Kubota is worth as much today as what I paid for it over 40 years ago....not much I can say that about, LOL.
No, unfortunately, it's a gasser, but I'll have to deal with that. I bought it from my Aunt this spring and know she had the cam replaced, which is one Achilles Heal it has. Other than that I think it should be good if I service it properly. Yea, those old Kubota's keep their value well! You got a goodun!
I've always, in the 10 or so times I've raised potato's, used purchased seed potato's as well. I've seen a few folks on the inter-webs using their own and was just curious. As a side note; I grabbed some Mexican food the other day and they had several plastic (Milk type) crates for free, so grabbed a couple that should work great for potato storage.
I would think I'll have to battle the lambs quarter, dandelions, and some sedge that are prevalent right here, but if I'm hearing you correctly it sounds like your cover crops kinda keep the nauseous weeds down to a minimum?
James
I've always, in the 10 or so times I've raised potato's, used purchased seed potato's as well. I've seen a few folks on the inter-webs using their own and was just curious. As a side note; I grabbed some Mexican food the other day and they had several plastic (Milk type) crates for free, so grabbed a couple that should work great for potato storage.
I would think I'll have to battle the lambs quarter, dandelions, and some sedge that are prevalent right here, but if I'm hearing you correctly it sounds like your cover crops kinda keep the nauseous weeds down to a minimum?
James
Meadowlark
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Those crates are GREAT! for potato storage. I use them for all kinds of things also. You're lucky to have a free supply.
Yes, I use cover crops as a primary source of weed control. Before using cover crops, weeding was a huge problem in my garden which was originally a bahia grass hay field. Now it just isn't a problem at all...but I do have continuous coverage of something. I never leave any of the garden ground uncovered or idle....always soil building.
I'm looking forward to following your journey into sustainability.
Yes, I use cover crops as a primary source of weed control. Before using cover crops, weeding was a huge problem in my garden which was originally a bahia grass hay field. Now it just isn't a problem at all...but I do have continuous coverage of something. I never leave any of the garden ground uncovered or idle....always soil building.
I'm looking forward to following your journey into sustainability.
I should have grabbed all 6-7 of them, but felt a little greedy! LOL!
So for a cover crop, since I love peas, what if I were to plant a good eating pea and some wheat, and only harvest some of the peas before mowing them down? Some would go to seed, but I could get a good supply and the rest would go to soil amendment. Just thinking.... ouch, my brain! Hahahah!
The tiller I am working on acquiring apparently has been setting outside for a while. Not sure of the condition, but it could be acquired for nothing. I really hope it isn't completely shot, but if it's just surface rust I'm fine with that. I love to sand things like that down and refurbish them. I'll keep you posted on that. I'll probably put something in the Tools & Equipment Forum with it.
I'll get some pics of my current site and show you, maybe throw in a few pics of this years garden.
Thanks for the good conversation!
So for a cover crop, since I love peas, what if I were to plant a good eating pea and some wheat, and only harvest some of the peas before mowing them down? Some would go to seed, but I could get a good supply and the rest would go to soil amendment. Just thinking.... ouch, my brain! Hahahah!
The tiller I am working on acquiring apparently has been setting outside for a while. Not sure of the condition, but it could be acquired for nothing. I really hope it isn't completely shot, but if it's just surface rust I'm fine with that. I love to sand things like that down and refurbish them. I'll keep you posted on that. I'll probably put something in the Tools & Equipment Forum with it.
I'll get some pics of my current site and show you, maybe throw in a few pics of this years garden.
Thanks for the good conversation!
Meadowlark
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Those old tillers were tough. It should be worth giving it a try.
You could try one type pea for soil building...the Austrian pea is excellent for soil building...and another different one that you like for eating. Best of both worlds.
You could try one type pea for soil building...the Austrian pea is excellent for soil building...and another different one that you like for eating. Best of both worlds.
My parents were an estimated 90% + sustainable while raising 7 children well into the 1940's with no electric power and a windmill for water. Watering garden plants was un-heard of but the value of a good dust mulch had already been discovered. The Alfalfa area and the Garden areas were rotated every 4 years.
Did you know laying hens will pick the Alfalfa stems clean of good well cured Alfalfa leaves and that allows the Laying Mash to remain in the feed store. That info was passed down to me and I've passed it on to my favorite niece who is interested in having a nice flock of laying hens with beautiful brown eggs. She also keeps a few wood ashes for the her birds to dust bathe in. What's the purpose of wood ashes? That's to keep the chicken Lice and Mites in check.
Did you know laying hens will pick the Alfalfa stems clean of good well cured Alfalfa leaves and that allows the Laying Mash to remain in the feed store. That info was passed down to me and I've passed it on to my favorite niece who is interested in having a nice flock of laying hens with beautiful brown eggs. She also keeps a few wood ashes for the her birds to dust bathe in. What's the purpose of wood ashes? That's to keep the chicken Lice and Mites in check.
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SC, was there any other food supplied to the flock? I know when I poke anything green through the fence, or anything green from the table, they devour it! I give them scratch grains and pelletized mash, but they love the mix of wheat and cracked corn food. I have dumped a bunch of curb collected leaves in the outdoor enclosure and it gives them great pleasure “scratching “ through them to find the tasty morsels. Love our chickens!
Meadowlark
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Very interesting reading SeniorCitizen. Thank you for posting it.
My Grandparents raised 18 children substance farming in the Ozarks about that same timeframe. They had a "cistern" for water and used water only for the humans. I learned a lot about companion planting, crop rotation, and soil building from their practices handed down through my Mother.
I've been experimenting with growing alfalfa the last couple of years here in East Texas. Kind of difficult climate for growing it, but it is a wonderous plant for the garden. No way I can let the chickens in on it or they would devour all of it. My Grandparents also used wood ashes a lot...like you said as a dust bathe, also used to dust the potato cuttings prior to planting to prevent rot and of course they made their own soap from the wood ashes.
I love the old ways and stories about them...keep em coming!
My Grandparents raised 18 children substance farming in the Ozarks about that same timeframe. They had a "cistern" for water and used water only for the humans. I learned a lot about companion planting, crop rotation, and soil building from their practices handed down through my Mother.
I've been experimenting with growing alfalfa the last couple of years here in East Texas. Kind of difficult climate for growing it, but it is a wonderous plant for the garden. No way I can let the chickens in on it or they would devour all of it. My Grandparents also used wood ashes a lot...like you said as a dust bathe, also used to dust the potato cuttings prior to planting to prevent rot and of course they made their own soap from the wood ashes.
I love the old ways and stories about them...keep em coming!
Country QUOTE: SC, was there any other food supplied to the flock?
Yes there was whole grain ( usually whole Oats ) and Oyster Shells, and we're talking free range farm chickens so they had access to everything, including the vegetable garden in some instances and always the cow corral where the picking was sometimes excellent depending on what the cows were fed, lol and wheat is another possibility for winter green pasture if leafy Alfalfa hay isn't available, but Alfalfa, a legume, is the best if possible.
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Meadowlark QUOTE: No way I can let the chickens in on it or they would devour all of it.
Consider pasturing the hens on the Alfalfa about once / week for around an hour of time. If one allows them to the Alfalfa pasture only a short time before roost time they will usually put themselves to roost without a hassle. Well, unless there is one that is attracted to a nearby tree to roost in.
If you have a county extension service, consider checking with those folks to determine if there is a Alfalfa cultivar that's suitable for your climate.
Yes there was whole grain ( usually whole Oats ) and Oyster Shells, and we're talking free range farm chickens so they had access to everything, including the vegetable garden in some instances and always the cow corral where the picking was sometimes excellent depending on what the cows were fed, lol and wheat is another possibility for winter green pasture if leafy Alfalfa hay isn't available, but Alfalfa, a legume, is the best if possible.
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Meadowlark QUOTE: No way I can let the chickens in on it or they would devour all of it.
Consider pasturing the hens on the Alfalfa about once / week for around an hour of time. If one allows them to the Alfalfa pasture only a short time before roost time they will usually put themselves to roost without a hassle. Well, unless there is one that is attracted to a nearby tree to roost in.
If you have a county extension service, consider checking with those folks to determine if there is a Alfalfa cultivar that's suitable for your climate.