Help with Carrots...didn't form at all.

[Meadowlark]

View attachment 93147

Source?

Reference please.

I would like to understand how alfalfa, canola, and pelleted diet (whatever that is to be composted) all show higher disappearance at 14 days than at 112 days. Please explain how that is even possible. The longer it goes the less disappearance after 14 days?

Must be a phenom of some magnitude. More composting days = less dry matter disappearance.... a true miracle.

 

[DirtMechanic]

Source?

Reference please.

I would like to understand how alfalfa, canola, and pelleted diet (whatever that is to be composted) all show higher disappearance at 14 days than at 112 days. Please explain how that is even possible. The longer it goes the less disappearance after 14 days?

Must be a phenom of some magnitude. More composting days = less dry matter disappearance.... a true miracle.

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Temperature-moisture-content-and-water-activity-of-compost-at-80-cm-depth-and-daily_fig1_42769272

For clarity purposes I think the chart is upside down. I think the pictures below are simpler views. That first chart measuring disappearance starts at 0,0 so the more compost lost the higher the line.

 

[Meadowlark]

I submit the chart is wrong.

Claiming that disappearance actually decreases over time is full of...well my compost. It is physically impossible for alfalfa disappearance at 14 days, roughly 70% on the chart...to go to 65% at 112 days on the chart.

The disappearance cannot drop...impossible... That would imply somehow the material is regenerating itself. Rather than simpler views, I'd would like to see a valid explanation of the original chart. IMO it is flat wrong. I assume you read it and agreed with it before posting?

Now, the rate of disappearance would drop over time.

Checking the reference provided, it appears that indeed the chart is wrong. The wrong variable is labeled on the horizontal axis. " DM disappearances reached a plateau and increased at a slower rate up to day 230. "

The change in the rate of disappearance is actually a second derivative we call acceleration in physics. It appears they are actually plotting the rate of change of disappearance and claiming that the rate slows down over time...not exactly Earth shaking. Wrong variable labeled and wrong units stated.

What point were you making with the chart originally?

 

[DirtMechanic]

I submit the chart is wrong.

Claiming that disappearance actually decreases over time is full of...well my compost. It is physically impossible for alfalfa disappearance at 14 days, roughly 70% on the chart...to go to 65% at 112 days on the chart.

The disappearance cannot drop...impossible... That would imply somehow the material is regenerating itself. Rather than simpler views, I'd would like to see a valid explanation of the original chart. IMO it is flat wrong. I assume you read it and agreed with it before posting?

Now, the rate of disappearance would drop over time.

Checking the reference provided, it appears that indeed the chart is wrong. The wrong variable is labeled on the horizontal axis. " DM disappearances reached a plateau and increased at a slower rate up to day 230. "

The change in the rate of disappearance is actually a second derivative we call acceleration in physics. It appears they are actually plotting the rate of change of disappearance and claiming that the rate slows down over time...not exactly Earth shaking. Wrong variable labeled and wrong units stated.

What point were you making with the chart originally?

Time and Temperature impact the sheer quantity of compost needed in my garden. Between my area and someone in a cooler or drier clime like UK there are differences that can lead to supply problems here because it can leave pretty quickly.

 

[Susan BBPM]

Time and Temperature impact the sheer quantity of compost needed in my garden. Between my area and someone in a cooler or drier clime like UK there are differences that can lead to supply problems here because it can leave pretty quickly.

For what it's worth, UK gardeners that promote 'no dig' approach admit that you need to buy in compost. Even bringing in begged and borrowed materials to compost you can't create enough.

From reading between the lines I think the real difference between UK and warmer climates is that we have a massive slug problem. In warm climates composting in place you can just follow nature and drop leaves, cover crops etc on the ground. But in the UK we NEED to use compost else we'll breed millions of slugs.

Meadowlark is growing his own compost (essentially) and composting it in situ. Again, difference in UK is that we tend not to have much land so can't afford to set aside beds in rotation for a cover crop that we can't eat.

I THINK the main difference between what Charles Dowding does and Meadowlark comes down to the UK need to compost first to keep slug numbers down, and lack of available land to grow crops specifically for composting.

Dowding doesn't rotate - he's experimented for several years and found no problems. HOWEVER, he's putting a layer of fresh compost on his beds every year. Also he doesn't think it beneficial to dig in - his experiments show no dig works best than identical amounts of compost dug in.

 

[gary350]

Are you using the correct fertilizer? A little 5-20-20 fertilizer once a week is good with lots of water in very soft potting soil. You can grow 100 carrots in a 5 gallon bucket. Never thin carrots, pull up the largest carrots first and eat them, the smaller carrots will fill in the places where larger carrots use to be. Drill several holes 3" from the bottom of a 5 gallon bucket then will bucket with potting soil 2" from the top. The bottom 3" of the bucket holds water so soil will never dry out. The tricky part for me is getting all the seeds to germinate sometimes only 20% germination. Buy fertilizer at Farmers Co-op in 50 lb bags $25 per bag.

If you have a 5 gallon bucket that leaks put a dozen kitchen food cans in the bottom they will hold water. You can put anything in the bucket that will hold water, bottom of a milk jug, bottom of a bleach bottle, empty jelly jars, etc.

 

[Ruderunner]

I've heard that root vegetable in general doesn't like high nitrogen levels. Seems they put the nitrogen into growing greens rather than roots.

M6 own experience seems to bear that out.

 

[Meadowlark]

I've heard that root vegetable in general doesn't like high nitrogen levels. Seems they put the nitrogen into growing greens rather than roots.

M6 own experience seems to bear that out.

I've heard that also...but I have to wonder if it all depends on the source of the Nitrogen.

Nitrogen is nitrogen, right... but I wonder.

I have all natural, high nitrogen levels in my soil, and I successfully grow large onion bulbs, long carrots, beets, potatoes, garlic, turnips, radishes, etc. without excessive tops.

I never use synthetic fertilizers on them. Makes me wonder.

 

[Meadowlark]

This has really taken a bite out of my confidence...waiting 2+ months and seeing the tops grow nicely to pull and see NOTHING.

PaulZone8b,

In follow up to this thread, these are the first thinnings from the seeds I planted late Oct. last per this thread. This represents about 10% of the crop from that planting. The rest will be harvested in another two or three weeks. They survived/thrived all winter and now are poised to explode in growth. They benefit from being in the ground much longer than the package says.

By the way, in reference to the earlier discussion on this thread, these carrots were grown in soil with Total Nitrogen tested at 35 ppm and no synthetic fertilizers added.

 

[Ruderunner]

I wonder why radish and turnips seem to push so well in my clay vs the care a carrot or beets need?

I've got a hunch it's the sulfer and iron content of the soil. Good chance I have soil similar to yours, orange clay. I have a friend a few miles away who deals with yellow clay (high sulfur) and of course Vidalia onions grow best in red soil (high iron)

 

[plot22]

I have an allotment in the UK and usually do not have any trouble with growing carrots. I only now grow the Sugarsnak variety as all the family prefer them. I think that you answered the question yourself when you said that you did not thin them. If you do not thin them at the best you will get a tangled mess of carrots that have not had the chance to properly form and at the worse you will get nothing. I set 6 rows the width of my allotment under a net that is high enough for me to get into on my hands and knees to thin them as soon as they are big enough. Carrot fly is the main problem in the UK but with my crop being netted I just do not suffer from it. When people say they that their crop has not germinated often they have but the slugs can hover up a full row in one night so as soon as I have set the seeds I put plenty of slug pellets down to combat this problem. Another problem in the UK is that the seeds are set too soon before the soil has warmed up enough for them to germinate. The only fertiliser that I use is blood, fish and bone which I add to the soil a week before I set the seeds. Another point is that I know that Sugarsnak and other varieties are available in pelleted form in the U.S. The pelleted seeds would help you to reduce your thinnings.

 

[PaulZone8b]

Thanks Plot22. Awesome feedback!! Nice photo too! So you add blood, fish, bone as a granule to the soil 1 week prior to seeding...and do you add anymore fertilizer at a later point? Do you do plant one group early spring and another group in summer to get 2 harvests ?

 

[gary350]

I have learned to plant carrot seeds in 10 gallon pots. 350 to 400 seeds per pot. Never thin small plants. When carrots are 1" diameter start pulling up the large carrots to eat this makes room for the smaller carrots to grow larger. Don't plant carrots all on the same day then you eat carrots as they become larger. I plant 1 pot of carrot seeds about every 2 weeks. Once I start pulling up 1" diameter carrot I can pull up carrots for a month before they are all gone. We have been eating carrots every day for a month.

pots works much better than planting seed in the garden.

 

[PaulZone8b]

Thanks Gary! Do you add any bone, blood, other fertilizer at or post planting ?

 

[gary350]

Thanks Gary! Do you add any bone, blood, other fertilizer at or post planting ?

Carrots need a lot of P&K but not much N. If you give carrots too much N you get hairy carrots with 100s of roots. Too much N also causes Y shape carrots and bent & deformed carrots. It takes practice to learn now much N carrots need. I tried 6-12-12 fertilizer it has too much N. 1-10-10 fertilizer will probably be best. You can mix 2 or 3 different fertilizers together to get something close to 1-10-10.